Self tune, or tuner?

[Circuit Motorsports]

So you say what we do is "bullshit" (referring to ROMs), and we respond, and we're being negative. Right.

This is why trying to have discussion on these forums usually goes nowhere, and then people wonder why there is a lack of good back-and-forth with the Pro-vendors and tuners on here.

It's a shame.

Ah well, back you your regularly scheduled program guys.

-Tristan

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

So you say what we do is "bullshit" (referring to ROMs), and we respond, and we're being negative. Right.

This is why trying to have discussion on these forums usually goes nowhere, and then people wonder why there is a lack of good back-and-forth with the Pro-vendors and tuners on here.

It's a shame.

Ah well, back you your regularly scheduled program guys.

-Tristan

i didn't say 'what you do' is bullshit. by all accounts you guys kick out great tunes. i said locking people out of what they paid for is bullshit, and that's my opinion. i'm allowed to have one and express it, as are you.

this actually was a pretty constructive thread until you posted in it. but enough of that...

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by jamesm

i didn't say 'what you do' is bullshit. by all accounts you guys kick out great tunes. i said locking people out of what they paid for is bullshit, and that's my opinion. i'm allowed to have one and express it, as are you.

this actually was a pretty constructive thread until you posted in it. but enough of that...

Sigh. OK, Here's the issue: You post in just about every single tuning thread on here. You like to paint all tuners on here in a negative light because you feel we charge for a tune, the customer gets a tune and they should be able to access all of the proprietary tuning solutions in that software.

That's not how it works. If you buy an iPhone does apple give you all of their proprietary software or hardware secrets? If you buy Windows XP, does Microsoft give you all of the back-end coding for that software? If you buy a Scion FR-S, does Toyota give you the code for the computer to get in there and change it?

Hell no. That's not how it works.

The Pro-tuners on here spend hundreds of hours fine-tuning their base maps and their calibrations for tuning. Some use special tuning calibrations for tuning cams, timing, fueling, etc. some of that yields more power, some of it yields better driving feel. Every tuner goes about it in different ways, some are better than others at it. It's their intellectual property.

You pay for their services and their tune, not for their tuning know-how. If you wanted to take a tuning class from the top tuners out there you'd end up paying quite a bit of money.

So you say - "But it's my tune, and it's just for my car, so what's the point in not giving it to me, nobody can use it on their car since it's different".

Wrong. The custom base calibrations that go into every tune are still there, but the tune needs to be tweaked for each car. So if you got an unlocked tune with your car, all it would take is one post on the internet and every Pro-tuner, garage-tuner, self-tuner or tuner-wannabe out there now has access to hundreds, if not thousands of hours of hard work and research, instantly, for free. And they can take that and start passing it off as their own. It happens, and that's why most tuners won't unlock their ROMs.

You make it a point in EVER SINGLE POST you make about how it's a scam. It gets old man. Really old.

Most Pro-tuners don't even want to post about it anymore on here because anytime we try and defend ourselves we just get bashed, like we're stealing from the poor.

Keep in mind, You wouldn't be able to self tune your car without Pro-tuners paving the way.

I'll say this again - Pro-tuning is really ideal for most people, I'm talking 90-95% of the guys out there that want or need a tune. You pay for a tune, and if you go to the right tuner, you get a solid turn key tune that you set and forget and just enjoy. Then there are the guys who want to do it themselves, they don't want to pay for a tune and they want the control and pride of doing it themselves, That's great, I'm all for it. We don't get mad or upset when people do it themselves. There are options, not ONE is the best. Pick the one right for you and don't bash the other one.

So if you don't understand then I don't know what else to say.

[SirBrass]

^^ Makes perfectly good sense to me.

[1086]

@Circuit Motorsports Good job digging yourself a grave. Are you trying to look like an asshat? Do you know the meaning of reputation? You're on your way to ruining it lol

[jamesm]

i'm not even going to respond to that. we disagree... it hasn't been a topic of conversation on here for a long time... that's all. those arguments were already made a long time ago, and no one really cares any more. ecutek is open now, some tuners are offering unlocked roms on a case-by-case basis, some aren't. it's really not worth scrapping over for the umpteenth time.

we just disagree, and always will.

and just fwiw i didn't have to look at anyone else's rom to make my car run right. i put the time in myself, lots and lots of hours of it, literally thousands of miles logging and dozens of hours tweaking stuff, just ask my wife lol. now i'm doing everything in my power to pass that on to whoever will listen and make it easier on the next guy, and it's obvious that you don't like that very much.

if you had read my earlier post in the thread you'd know that i suggested protuning is the way to go for anyone not willing to put in the time. no one is trying to piggyback off of anyone. we don't need to.

[Ironsquid]

heres the brass tax. air and fuel go in, pistons go boom, exhaust gas comes out. Not really reinventing the wheel here. The custom racerom map area I can understand maybe, but even then twostep, autoblip, nolifttoshift isnt new either.

its probably not even likely that x tuner could even take y tuners rom and really apply it anywhere becausr all roms are based off the car. Makes sense to me, I understand the concern, but i doubt anyone would really lose any "tuning money". It might even be the opposite effect because hey if you mess up a car with a tune not meant for it, thats money to retune.

But what do I know, people said you cant run big turbos on small motors.

[JP]

For me it's quite simple, if a "pro tuner" is going to lock my map, I wont have my car tuned by them.


The good tuners around my part of the world don't tend to lock their maps. I have been stuck in the "Tuner wont unlock the ECU" situation before, citing if someone else tuned the engine it would explode. I did manage to get a copy of the map for that ECU (Autronic SM4) and there was a good reason the tuner was trying to hide their work... very average tuning.

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by jamesm

i'm not even going to respond to that. we disagree... it hasn't been a topic of conversation on here for a long time... that's all. those arguments were already made a long time ago, and no one really cares any more. ecutek is open now, some tuners are offering unlocked roms on a case-by-case basis, some aren't. it's really not worth scrapping over for the umpteenth time.

we just disagree, and always will.

and just fwiw i didn't have to look at anyone else's rom to make my car run right. i put the time in myself, lots and lots of hours of it, literally thousands of miles logging and dozens of hours tweaking stuff, just ask my wife lol. now i'm doing everything in my power to pass that on to whoever will listen and make it easier on the next guy, and it's obvious that you don't like that very much.

if you had read my earlier post in the thread you'd know that i suggested protuning is the way to go for anyone not willing to put in the time. no one is trying to piggyback off of anyone. we don't need to.

I don't care if you share your tuning knowledge, I just stated above I don't. We're not "scared" if that's what you're implying.

If you don't want to piggyback then great, why do you care if the ROMs are unlocked

That kind of defeats your whole argument.

Originally Posted by Ironsquid

heres the brass tax. air and fuel go in, pistons go boom, exhaust gas comes out. Not really reinventing the wheel here. The custom racerom map area I can understand maybe, but even then twostep, autoblip, nolifttoshift isnt new either.

its probably not even likely that x tuner could even take y tuners rom and really apply it anywhere becausr all roms are based off the car. Makes sense to me, I understand the concern, but i doubt anyone would really lose any "tuning money". It might even be the opposite effect because hey if you mess up a car with a tune not meant for it, thats money to retune.

But what do I know, people said you cant run big turbos on small motors.

You're wrong. Tuner X can most definitely Take Tuner's Y info and use it.

Originally Posted by JP

For me it's quite simple, if a "pro tuner" is going to lock my map, I wont have my car tuned by them.


The good tuners around my part of the world don't tend to lock their maps. I have been stuck in the "Tuner wont unlock the ECU" situation before, citing if someone else tuned the engine it would explode. I did manage to get a copy of the map for that ECU (Autronic SM4) and there was a good reason the tuner was trying to hide their work... very average tuning.

Ask any of the big time tuners on here why they lock their maps, answer will all be the same.

It's been said "Oh well they have crappy maps, why else wouldn't they want you to see their maps"?

Which sure, I guess in some cases that might be true, you could try to hide your crappy tuning by locking a map. But it's usually the opposite, they have really good tuning tricks/solutions and they don't want their competitors to have that info. Simple as that.

But I can understand you wanting a unlocked map, there is nothing wrong with that.

I try to be pretty informational and transparent and it get's me a lot of flak on here but....what can ya do

-Tristan

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

I don't care if you share your tuning knowledge, I just stated above I don't. We're not "scared" if that's what you're implying.

If you don't want to piggyback then great, why do you care if the ROMs are unlocked

That kind of defeats your whole argument.

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

Keep in mind, You wouldn't be able to self tune your car without Pro-tuners paving the way.

you're awfully defensive, and we all know where that usually comes from...

listen, i don't want access to your roms. i don't need access to your roms. i don't even own one of your tunes for you to unlock.

i just thought it was hilarious that you would suggest that we're 'couldn't do it without pro tuners paving the way', when not a single master tuner has contributed a single shred of useful information on this forum. they share nothing whatsoever.

bill at delicious made one useful thread right before ecutek end user tuning dropped that said 'hey look, here's what racerom can do.' and that was it. nothing else whatsoever. not so much as a blog post saying 'here's how to scale a maf'. nothing. and yet somehow you honestly believe that we just couldn't do it without them. the whole body of ecutek master tuners have literally contributed, combined and in total, that one post. and yet you somehow think you've built the house we live in. it's insane.

Virtualy every single shred of useful tuning information on this forum has been contributed by amateurs.

ok i'm done now.

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by jamesm

you're awfully defensive, and we all know where that usually comes from...

listen, i don't want access to your roms. i don't need access to your roms. i don't even own one of your tunes for you to unlock.

i just thought it was hilarious that you would suggest that we're 'couldn't do it without pro tuners paving the way', when not a single master tuner has contributed a single shred of useful information on this forum. they share nothing whatsoever.

bill at delicious made one useful thread right before ecutek end user tuning dropped that said 'hey look, here's what racerom can do.' and that was it. nothing else whatsoever. not so much as a blog post saying 'here's how to scale a maf'. nothing. and yet somehow you honestly believe that we just couldn't do it without them. the whole body of ecutek master tuners have literally contributed, combined and in total, that one post. and yet you somehow think you've built the house we live in. it's insane.

Virtualy every single shred of useful tuning information on this forum has been contributed by amateurs.

ok i'm done now.

You seem to be the one on the defense....

My point was that without the Tuners developing the software to use, it wouldn't be out there. Without Professional Tuners buying Professionally developed software, and utilizing it, there wouldn't be the amateur versions of that software. It's the trickle down effect so common in the commercial/business world.

Opensource stuff is all reverse engineered from the Professionally developed stuff too.

There's a lot of useful info given to guys on here by the Pro's. Is every post a library of info on how to tune your own car? No, but that doesn't mean there's still a lot contributed.

I know that you're just going to keep going back and forth, but, I like to address stuff like this so people can see both sides of the coin.




-Tristan

[ztan]

Being in the middle of the process of getting my Port and DI fuelling systems synchronized with many pointers from James and mad_sb, I do wonder how some of the remote tuners could really address this properly. I wonder how many pro-tuners even check the port/direct balance at baseline.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

You seem to be the one on the defense....

My point was that without the Tuners developing the software to use, it wouldn't be out there. Without Professional Tuners buying Professionally developed software, and utilizing it, there wouldn't be the amateur versions of that software. It's the trickle down effect so common in the commercial/business world.

Opensource stuff is all reverse engineered from the Professionally developed stuff too.

There's a lot of useful info given to guys on here by the Pro's. Is every post a library of info on how to tune your own car? No, but that doesn't mean there's still a lot contributed.

I know that you're just going to keep going back and forth, but, I like to address stuff like this so people can see both sides of the coin.




-Tristan

Tuners don't develop software, and if you can link to some of this useful info you've posted I'll be glad to eat crow. It's been fun. Goodnight.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by ztan

Being in the middle of the process of getting my Port and DI fuelling systems synchronized with many pointers from James and mad_sb, I do wonder how some of the remote tuners could really address this properly. I wonder how many pro-tuners even check the port/direct balance at baseline.

Luckily it's not a big issue until you throw in a larger maf housing and bigger injectors. This is why there are a lot more happy etune customers running around NA than with FI. It's only truly necessary in the more extreme cases. That's not to say you can't improve it even on a completely stock car.