Is the AVO kit worth it?

[lexusb3]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Brandon has posted his numbers on his T3 60 trim kit:

Dyno 545whp/427tq/E85/25si
Dyno 478whp/363tq/E85/20psi
Dyno 434whp/323tq/E85/16PSI,
Dyno 337whp/255tq/93 pump/10PSI
Dyno 287whp/212tq/93 pump/5.3PSI

So he made 337 whp on 93 octane which is about what I feel is the limit on 93 octane fuel on a Dynojet SAE corrected. The truth about his car is that he most likely drives it around on the low PSI E85 setup most of the time.

I run everything equally to be honest as long as it's not raining. I drive a lot of high way so I tend to crank it up on an empty lane !!! Low boost kinda to slow sometimes

[Sonolin]

TL;DR More 86 users need to stop worrying about F/I and track their cars

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

TL;DR More 86 users need to stop worrying about F/I and track their cars

I agree. I want one of them to let me drive their car as well.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by jamesm

nice jab. rather uninformed given you have no idea of my background or history, but sure, whatever.

and yes. i live in florida. in orlando. i know all about heat and traffic. and no, in traffic my car runs until the fans turn on and keeps it's temp just like it did when it was stock. there has been literally no change whatsoever in that regard since installing the turbo.

i've already posted up data showing this in the past... logs of iat's and all that, but i'm sure you didn't take the time to look at them. you seem quite averse to actual data. i've asked multiple times for a single example supporting your case that the engine is unreliable at 300-350whp, and you've provided nothing. do you have any, or can this just end now?

Sorry, feeling feisty today. James, even if you show me logs, I can only use that as a single data point right? I have been in a car where IATs climb beyond 200, that's.....not good right? At best, I can say that there are contradictory data to make an informed decision. But having a giant heat source in behind the radiator and below the intake pipe doesn't have any effect at all? Physically, that seems tough to believe. But if there is a good sampling of cars that demonstrate the same negligible effect of heat, sure, I'll admit I'm wrong.

I maybe snarky in my delivery, but I'm truly curious how a glowing hot thing doesn't contribute to elevated temps. Is the radiator really have that much extra headroom to cool the giant heat source? If so, then all the aftermarket radiator companies should pack their bags and go.

And in case there is any misunderstanding, the overnight experts statement wasn't referring to you James. It's more the shops that have something to sell. Visconti, Toni, umm....I mentioned someone else. James, you and I can shoot the breeze and it'd be all ok. You are obviously advocating for something and I am obviously at least skeptical about it. But we can talk it through.

tl:dr; – still don't think that big turbos are "fun" in a small displacement motor (just MY opinion, anyone else can have a different one). If I were living in Japan and have access to their 94/95 octane, I'd STILL choose the smaller turbocharger as AVO Japan has shown a dyno chart where torque peak is at around 3000rpm. Which means, on the street, in higher gears, it'll be even more responsive. *I* like that. You may think that is a terrible thing to have, to have torque low in the rpm band, and while I disagree with you, I won't argue with you and try to change your mind. I remember way back in 2001, when the WRX was first sold in the US, the market isn't toooo much different. Development time was longer, but there are also far less dynos around.

-budi

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by jamesm

I don't think there is any data available that would suggest that these engines become unreliable at the 320-330whp level. I think that is at best an assumption.

Have there been any documented failures at that level that weren't related to tuning or mechanical failure (i.e. overboosting)?

I understand your position, but I think that your assumption is contradicted by all of the available evidence. If you could provide evidence to the contrary I'm sure the community would appreciate it.

They don't become unreliable at that power level - they start knocking because you can't retard the timing any more, the egt's start going up past unacceptable limits. So no, it's not the motor, per se, that's becoming unreliable, but the detonation is certainly making it unreliable.

And because we log everything, and check everything, and have tuners that have been tuning from 18~32 years, we don't push it past those fairly proven indicators that just to see if it's going to blow up.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

Sorry, feeling feisty today. James, even if you show me logs, I can only use that as a single data point right? I have been in a car where IATs climb beyond 200, that's.....not good right? At best, I can say that there are contradictory data to make an informed decision. But having a giant heat source in behind the radiator and below the intake pipe doesn't have any effect at all? Physically, that seems tough to believe. But if there is a good sampling of cars that demonstrate the same negligible effect of heat, sure, I'll admit I'm wrong.

I maybe snarky in my delivery, but I'm truly curious how a glowing hot thing doesn't contribute to elevated temps. Is the radiator really have that much extra headroom to cool the giant heat source? If so, then all the aftermarket radiator companies should pack their bags and go.

And in case there is any misunderstanding, the overnight experts statement wasn't referring to you James. It's more the shops that have something to sell. Visconti, Toni, umm....I mentioned someone else. James, you and I can shoot the breeze and it'd be all ok. You are obviously advocating for something and I am obviously at least skeptical about it. But we can talk it through.

tl:dr; – still don't think that big turbos are "fun" in a small displacement motor (just MY opinion, anyone else can have a different one). If I were living in Japan and have access to their 94/95 octane, I'd STILL choose the smaller turbocharger as AVO Japan has shown a dyno chart where torque peak is at around 3000rpm. Which means, on the street, in higher gears, it'll be even more responsive. *I* like that. You may think that is a terrible thing to have, to have torque low in the rpm band, and while I disagree with you, I won't argue with you and try to change your mind. I remember way back in 2001, when the WRX was first sold in the US, the market isn't toooo much different. Development time was longer, but there are also far less dynos around.

-budi

no worries. i only know what i see with my own two eyes. and in my experience, the turbocharger didn't cause any noticeable increase in coolant temps after installation. iat's climb when at a standstill, but then drop precipitously once moving again.

others who have other kits (particularly the fbm kit) have overheating issues, but they seem to be caused by the included fans being insufficient. my kit retains one stock fan, which is what i credit for keeping my temperatures consistent.

bear in mind i also have a 100% stock cooling system, no aftermarket radiator or oil cooler. the fans make all the difference imho. i do have a turbo blanket, which i'm sure helps as well (i can touch it after a hard run and not get burnt).

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by Victor Draken

Funny thing is.. everyone kinda bashing AVO but I don't see any turbo kit around that have been tracked without heat issue. I have seen S/C that can do it but not a single turbo.

Some turbo out there have problem of heat even not on the track, so it's kinda funny how most of you guys is talking about headroom for bigger turbo and big numbers when the only thing you are thinking of is: smoke ppl at stop light and e-peen my dyno charts around, making my friends wet their pants when I do few highway pulls.

I mean... It's ok if you like it but stop bashing a product because of numbers. It's same story as S/C vs Turbo.

Bring a turbo car on the track, beat the shit out of it, post proof and I will put a shoe on my head and post pic.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50800

It's been a the circuit extensively, and as you can see by the videos, even beat a mclaren around the track.

The AVO Japan turbo BRZ has been participating in the HyperRev Time Attack series in Japan, there's video's of it and many magazine articles in Japan on it. Ross has personally taken it around Tsukuba Circuit for 80 laps in a day
with a stock cooling system. It can be done, but even we admit you'd be better with an oil cooler for that sort of scenario.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

tl:dr; – still don't think that big turbos are "fun" in a small displacement motor (just MY opinion, anyone else can have a different one). If I were living in Japan and have access to their 94/95 octane, I'd STILL choose the smaller turbocharger as AVO Japan has shown a dyno chart where torque peak is at around 3000rpm.

Not disagreeing with you or anything, just providing my personal experience, and add that usual assumptions should be thrown out the window with this motor.

E85 is a "better" gas than 94/95. My AVO kit on 93 reached full boost (10 psi at 3800-3900). On E85 it reached 16 psi at about 4400 RPMs (understandable, it needed those extra RPMs to get from 10 to 16 psi), but what I mean is that the better gas did not help much to get full boost quicker.

My new GTX30 (with .82 backhousing instead of .63) is seeing full 10.5 psi of boost between 4300-4400 on 93 gas. I was worried of not reaching full boost with this turbo until 5K+ but that is not the case...

[Victor Draken]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50800

It's been a the circuit extensively, and as you can see by the videos, even beat a mclaren around the track.

The AVO Japan turbo BRZ has been participating in the HyperRev Time Attack series in Japan, there's video's of it and many magazine articles in Japan on it. Ross has personally taken it around Tsukuba Circuit for 80 laps in a day
with a stock cooling system. It can be done, but even we admit you'd be better with an oil cooler for that sort of scenario.

To bad I don't have any tuner in my country that would be able to tune the turbokit, so unless the OTS Map can give me around 250-260whp on 93-94oct, I'm not able to place the avo kit in the list of future FI solution.

Sorry for the offtopic rant.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Not disagreeing with you or anything, just providing my personal experience, and add that usual assumptions should be thrown out the window with this motor.

E85 is a "better" gas than 94/95. My AVO kit on 93 reached full boost (10 psi at 3800-3900). On E85 it reached 16 psi at about 4400 RPMs (understandable, it needed those extra RPMs to get from 10 to 16 psi), but what I mean is that the better gas did not help much to get full boost quicker.

My new GTX30 (with .82 backhousing instead of .63) is seeing full 10.5 psi of boost between 4300-4400 on 93 gas. I was worried of not reaching full boost with this turbo until 5K+ but that is not the case...

I would question your tuner's ability if he cannot bring spool characteristics better with MUCH better gas. Plus, hasn't other tuners shown they can bring this "tiny" turbo on boost faster than 3800rpm? Since you have a larger turbo, I assume that E85 is pretty accessible to you then? That's great, I have lingering questions regarding E85, but it's one that can't be answered in the short term. I don't believe we have studied any long terms effects of running E85 daily, just because we haven't had access to E85 for all that long. I have worked on Alcohol drag cars and the benefits is undeniable.

Back on topic: I'm skeptical about putting a turbocharger between radiator and belt (I know of only one manufacturer who did this and no one has placed the turbocharger in that location since) so that leaves bottom mount turbos. Of the bottom mount turbos, I've had and heard nothing but bad things about long term longevity of electric pumps, plus it's much more work to key RPMs to pump output which leaves it as an on/off switch for an essential function. So, yes, AVO is worth it in my perspective. Your miles will vary a lot.

budi

[diss7]

Originally Posted by Victor Draken

Funny thing is.. everyone kinda bashing AVO but I don't see any turbo kit around that have been tracked without heat issue. I have seen S/C that can do it but not a single turbo.

I mean... It's ok if you like it but stop bashing a product because of numbers. It's same story as S/C vs Turbo.

Bring a turbo car on the track, beat the shit out of it, post proof and I will put a shoe on my head and post pic.

Originally Posted by Sonolin

TL;DR More 86 users need to stop worrying about F/I and track their cars

Have babies with me

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

This is getting WAY off topic. Topic at hand is AVO worth it or not.

No. Not because of the results, because of the chang. A kit full of chang, compared to JDM or USDM kit with garrett / borg / precision? It should be well cheaper, it isn't. Yes I keep bringing the Chinese copied t518z turbo it uses. Because it fucks me off. And it gets lost in the sea of information that is these forums.
"It's an AVO developed turbo" yeah, that shares all the same specs of a turbo that already exists.

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by diss7

I keep bringing the Chinese copied t518z turbo it uses.

I have to ask - do you know who actually makes the t518z? Because this post seriously indicates you don't. Greddy/Trust does not make CHRA's. There is actually only a handful of manufacturers that make CHRA's, even Garret's, and they supply everybody else.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

I would question your tuner's ability if he cannot bring spool characteristics better with MUCH better gas. Plus, hasn't other tuners shown they can bring this "tiny" turbo on boost faster than 3800rpm? Since you have a larger turbo, I assume that E85 is pretty accessible to you then? That's great, I have lingering questions regarding E85, but it's one that can't be answered in the short term. I don't believe we have studied any long terms effects of running E85 daily, just because we haven't had access to E85 for all that long. I have worked on Alcohol drag cars and the benefits is undeniable.

Back on topic: I'm skeptical about putting a turbocharger between radiator and belt (I know of only one manufacturer who did this and no one has placed the turbocharger in that location since) so that leaves bottom mount turbos. Of the bottom mount turbos, I've had and heard nothing but bad things about long term longevity of electric pumps, plus it's much more work to key RPMs to pump output which leaves it as an on/off switch for an essential function. So, yes, AVO is worth it in my perspective. Your miles will vary a lot.

budi

Yes, I agree on the tuner part. The tuner that did my AVO kit may not have done the best job. Bob from Drift Office seems to have been able to produce much better numbers on the AVO car. In general, customer cars have had similar results to mine, maybe a little better.

Yes, I have E85 readily available, but didn't get a bigger turbo just because of E85, but because for a similar price (even less just a matter of finding the right parts) I was able to get a quality GTX turbo, garret efficient IC and a full V-band SS made locally. I got a bigger turbo to be able to have headroom the day building the car comes. Built motor can push the GTX on pumpgas to 500+.

I do understand your concerns about top mounted turbo. But again, when I decided to buy a turbo kit, I was not looking to slap it in, set it and forget it. I wanted a proper turbo build meaning upgraded brakes, water cooling, oil cooling, PCV system, tires, suspension, fueling, etc.

Agree with you 100% YMMV a lot.

[SmsAlSuwaidi]

Originally Posted by diss7

Have babies with me



No. Not because of the results, because of the chang. A kit full of chang, compared to JDM or USDM kit with garrett / borg / precision? It should be well cheaper, it isn't. Yes I keep bringing the Chinese copied t518z turbo it uses. Because it fucks me off. And it gets lost in the sea of information that is these forums.
"It's an AVO developed turbo" yeah, that shares all the same specs of a turbo that already exists.

Thank you!
People seem to discard that a lot