Part of the problem explained.

[RFB]

Originally Posted by DR 86

If you have so much issue with what you perceive to be this car's suspension inadequacies, sell it and get something else that makes you happy.

What suspension inadequacies ? Even stock, the car handles like a dream ! ( With sticky tires, like a wet dream ).

Closest thing to Porsche handling at an affordable price - Toyobaru !



CERBERUS

[Rayme]

So how are the thread tags created? It's hilarious lol...

[PMPB]

Originally Posted by Rayme

So how are the thread tags created? It's hilarious lol...

At the far right of the tag bar, there is an "Edit Tags" button. I believe each person has the ability to add two tags, and edit/remove their own tags.

[krayzie]

I'm no engineer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by stugray

All of you that want to bitch about Suberman - STFU and dont read his posts if you dont want to

You are far more annoying complaining about him than he ever is.
Anyone that cannot handle a debate should just stay out of it.

I for one appreciate discussing the handling characteristics of any car and how to properly drive them. And Suberman is correct far more then most of you think.

Well all he did was copy and pasted the link that some one had posted in another thread, not much IQ used there.

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Well all he did was copy and pasted the link that some one had posted in another thread, not much IQ used there.

Nonetheless, I see his point - Suberman has his opinion - it differs (obviously) from a lot of people here.
I don't see how that makes it necessary to pile on the guy.

[wparsons]

^^ Do a search for other posts by Suberman, then you'll get it.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by RFB

What suspension inadequacies ? Even stock, the car handles like a dream ! ( With sticky tires, like a wet dream ).

Closest thing to Porsche handling at an affordable price - Toyobaru !



CERBERUS

This kind of says it all really, though it misses opportunity for scatalogical innuendo. The adolescent rite of passage innuendo is revealing, my how I miss those days! The username is unintentionally (I hope anyway) truly hilarious. After all, everyone on the internet could be somebody's dog. I hope my user name provides adequate warning of my own self image. Caveat emptor!

My point, eminently justified and supported by just about everyone who knows how to drive, is that this car slides too easily. This means it is not the closest thing to Porsche handling at an affordable price. In fact, a lowly Ford Fiesta ST with a 1.6 turbo will make mincemeat of any of the three versions of this car.

The car was designed this way deliberately. The marketing guys at Toyota knew exactly what they wanted and that's what they built. They were right as the car is immensely popular, but not among serious and capable drivers. Very, very interesting is to realize that the three versions of this car on sale around the world have three different spring rates F/R which of course means one of those is the best. That happens to be the BRZ. Why? Because it begins to slide at a higher speed than the other two, on any surface. Why? Because it has the softest rear axle. And before you whine that this ain't necessarily so, yes it is. One of those three set ups will be consistently quickest around any track if driven by enough expert drivers. For those less educated "best" is a superlative. "One of the best" although in common useage, is a meaningless phrase

Its a shame the car is not as good as it could have been. I am trying to find out if anything can be done about this. Much as I'd like to think a simple wheel alignment could help I know it won't make enough difference. Better tires will raise the cornering speed at which the car slides but that doesn't fix anything in the wet or on snow. Nobody will be able to change the rear suspension geometry. A camber adjustment on the lower control arm might help but these cars already run a fair amount of rear camber.

Rear toe in helps contribute to the illusion of stability so important to the novice driver. However, rear toe in sets the rear axle into a pre-oversteer condition. You don't get nothing for nothing. The reason rear toe in works is the tire runs at a higher slip angle before it even begins to corner. The toe link toes then toes in the rear wheels even more as the body rolls. The rear axle reaches maximum slip angle sooner than if initial toe in were zero. The car slides.

If the lower link developed more negative camber you might get some camber thrust but this is seriously limited because a given contact patch can only develop a certain level of grip, more or less. You can have it as slip angle generated by twisting the tire carcass or you can have it as camber thrust twisting the carcass in a different way. Motorcycles mainly use camber thrust. The contact patch delivers the cornering force, provided the shape remains optimized (and that's a very significant proviso, btw) it doesn't matter whether the cornering force is generated by slip angle or camber thrust.

Evo magazine runs a GT86 as a long termer. ALL of their editors spun their car repeatedly one wet track day (at Bedford Autodrome West Circuit an immensely popular and straightforward track where ex-F1 driver Jonathon Palmer runs a racing school) and Richard (****ie) Meaden who knows a thing or two about fast driving declared the GT86 undrivable.

They put better tires on it right away. Not much has changed in the wet (nor could it really since tire grip isn't the issue if you're spinning in the wet, any tire would lose grip, a fortiori then on snow or ice).

Litchfield stuck a turbo on, modified the springs, roll bars and dampers, fit proper tires and produced an over steering monster, in the dry. Slower than a Porsche Cayman when it should match it with 280 bhp.

CAR runs a BRZ as part of its long term fleet. December issue: "To drive it every day though, when you can't always drive it hard, you just want something else....now it's time for some grown up conversation."

[ayau]

If the car really bothers you, why don't you trade it in for something else? All cars will have some type of inefficiency.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by ayau

If the car really bothers you, why don't you trade it in for something else? All cars will have some type of inefficiency.

I like this car just fine.

I'd like it better if it handled better. As it is you have to be 16 at heart to enjoy this car for long. If you know what you're doing it gets a tad tiresome to drive every day. It could be much better.

Not all cars can be improved from the factory.

An indicator of which ones are poorly designed in the first place and could have been much better can be gauged from the availability of aftermarket "improvements".

Think about it, you'll understand eventually.

[DR 86]

What's your point? You have a car that you bought for $30K that doesn't drive like a Porsche. You have gripes about it. We understand that. Get Subaru to hire you to redesign the suspension geometry for future iterations. Sell it and get a Cayman. Quit whining. No one wants to listen to you go on and on about what's wrong with a car that we all own that you propose is irremediable. Live with it. Have you tracked this car? I've driven this car hard for two winters and I've never even come close to any hairy situations. Sure, I've slipped the tail out, but it's so predictable and so easy to correct that it's just plain fun. Am I going to set any rally records with it? No. Who cares? I've tracked this car two seasons. Does it handle like a Cayman? No. Is it a shitload of fun for $30K? Hell, yes. We're tired of your self-serving bullshit that doesn't provide any of the owners of this platform with any constructive information.

[krayzie]

This argument reminds me of the early SW20 models and snap oversteer criticism:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnhiFucXoVk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnhiFucXoVk[/ame]


Example of parts that deal with the linearity of the rear suspension movment on the BRZ (concept derived from the Impreza WRX STI S203 by using pillow ball joints):

http://www.sti.jp/parts/catalogue/br...0250ZR000.html

http://www.sti.jp/parts/catalogue/br...0250AS000.html

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2QhDBShwqI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2QhDBShwqI[/ame]


BTW I was at the tire shop last week and looked at the Michelin winter product line poster. There are at least 4 models (Pilot Alpin and Primacy) above the Michelin X-Ice 3 that Suberman is using IIRC, and they seem to target high performance handling characteristics (in which the X-Ice doesn't).

[RFB]

Originally Posted by Suberman

This kind of says it all really, though it misses opportunity for scatalogical innuendo. The adolescent rite of passage innuendo is revealing, my how I miss those days! The username is unintentionally (I hope anyway) truly hilarious. After all, everyone on the internet could be somebody's dog. I hope my user name provides adequate warning of my own self image. Caveat emptor!

My point, eminently justified and supported by just about everyone who knows how to drive, is that this car slides too easily. This means it is not the closest thing to Porsche handling at an affordable price. In fact, a lowly Ford Fiesta ST with a 1.6 turbo will make mincemeat of any of the three versions of this car.

The car was designed this way deliberately. The marketing guys at Toyota knew exactly what they wanted and that's what they built. They were right as the car is immensely popular, but not among serious and capable drivers. Very, very interesting is to realize that the three versions of this car on sale around the world have three different spring rates F/R which of course means one of those is the best. That happens to be the BRZ. Why? Because it begins to slide at a higher speed than the other two, on any surface. Why? Because it has the softest rear axle. And before you whine that this ain't necessarily so, yes it is. One of those three set ups will be consistently quickest around any track if driven by enough expert drivers. For those less educated "best" is a superlative. "One of the best" although in common useage, is a meaningless phrase

Its a shame the car is not as good as it could have been. I am trying to find out if anything can be done about this. Much as I'd like to think a simple wheel alignment could help I know it won't make enough difference. Better tires will raise the cornering speed at which the car slides but that doesn't fix anything in the wet or on snow. Nobody will be able to change the rear suspension geometry. A camber adjustment on the lower control arm might help but these cars already run a fair amount of rear camber.

Rear toe in helps contribute to the illusion of stability so important to the novice driver. However, rear toe in sets the rear axle into a pre-oversteer condition. You don't get nothing for nothing. The reason rear toe in works is the tire runs at a higher slip angle before it even begins to corner. The toe link toes then toes in the rear wheels even more as the body rolls. The rear axle reaches maximum slip angle sooner than if initial toe in were zero. The car slides.

If the lower link developed more negative camber you might get some camber thrust but this is seriously limited because a given contact patch can only develop a certain level of grip, more or less. You can have it as slip angle generated by twisting the tire carcass or you can have it as camber thrust twisting the carcass in a different way. Motorcycles mainly use camber thrust. The contact patch delivers the cornering force, provided the shape remains optimized (and that's a very significant proviso, btw) it doesn't matter whether the cornering force is generated by slip angle or camber thrust.

Evo magazine runs a GT86 as a long termer. ALL of their editors spun their car repeatedly one wet track day (at Bedford Autodrome West Circuit an immensely popular and straightforward track where ex-F1 driver Jonathon Palmer runs a racing school) and Richard (****ie) Meaden who knows a thing or two about fast driving declared the GT86 undrivable.

They put better tires on it right away. Not much has changed in the wet (nor could it really since tire grip isn't the issue if you're spinning in the wet, any tire would lose grip, a fortiori then on snow or ice).

Litchfield stuck a turbo on, modified the springs, roll bars and dampers, fit proper tires and produced an over steering monster, in the dry. Slower than a Porsche Cayman when it should match it with 280 bhp.

CAR runs a BRZ as part of its long term fleet. December issue: "To drive it every day though, when you can't always drive it hard, you just want something else....now it's time for some grown up conversation."

Much of reviewers negativity with comparisons to other cars is really blaming the car for its poor tires.

A set of sticky tires changes everything - The car handles like a Porsche - and will outcorner the sh!tboxes it's compared to.

For the price involved its worth every penny !

Besides it's a drift racer - not Gran Prix, Formula 1 etc.

And as for your perceived nuisance level - your technical expertise and information offered contributes to our community, whether you are accurate or not, as it leads to dialogue, differing opinions and enlightenment.
Eventually someone with more technical expertise than you will chime in with more debate, info and enlightenment.



CERBERUS

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by normancw

Is there an ignore feature for this forum?

I believe there is.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk