This is not a winter car! Fed up! May end up selling...

[Gords_zenith]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Geez, you're wasted where you are. Get over to Milton Keynes and ask for Adrian. He needs you.

I really appreciate the way you think physics are different in F1 than for other vehicles.

Aerodynamics can only work if the chassis works. Aero effects are totally, and I do mean totally, useless unless the springing, damping and tire pressures are exactly right.

You all have it completely backwards, which is unsurprising given your other posts on handling topics.

Just btw aero has no effect on winter driving unless there's a blizzard. Then down force isn't on your mind....

I bet you also did the engineering on the Avro Arrow and it's Iroquois engine. Then moved on to NASA where you designed the Apollo program. Then moved on to designing nuclear power plants. Wait a second, you're actually the real life Forest Gump. Wow - My mind has just been blown.

Btw stop being a condescending asshole, and people may actually respect your opinions. Telling some one who has a problem that they're the problem, just rubs people the wrong way. But I guess humility isn't in your dictionary as your a lier....errr...sorry I meant Lawyer.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Gords_zenith

I bet you also did the engineering on the Avro Arrow and it's Iroquois engine. Then moved on to NASA where you designed the Apollo program. Then moved on to designing nuclear power plants. Wait a second, you're actually the real life Forest Gump. Wow - My mind has just been blown.

Btw stop being a condescending asshole, and people may actually respect your opinions. Telling some one who has a problem that they're the problem, just rubs people the wrong way. But I guess humility isn't in your dictionary as your a lier....errr...sorry I meant Lawyer.

The first person to use personal insults in any rational debate loses all credibility.

By that measure I've won all of them.

I don't care whether anybody even reads my opinions.

Most of my posts are intended to add to the information available to readers.

The inherent democracy of this type of interchange is self correcting. Believe whatever you want. I could care less.

I'm learning a lot from these boards but rarely from anyone who stoops to personal attacks. There is a cause and effect in operation there.

If I am attacked I figure its fair game to respond in kind. I am impervious to insult and my ego is unassailable. I am kind to animals, children and women. However, I am ruthless with those that deserve to be put in their place. I'm a barrister. This tyoe of "debate" is just a busman's holiday for me. Give up now and save your sanity.

You're an idiot. How's that?

[Gords_zenith]

Originally Posted by Suberman

The first person to use personal insults in any rational debate loses all credibility.

By that measure I've won all of them.

I don't care whether anybody even reads my opinions.

Most of my posts are intended to add to the information available to readers.

The inherent democracy of this type of interchange is self correcting. Believe whatever you want. I could care less.

I'm learning a lot from these boards but rarely from anyone who stoops to personal attacks. There is a cause and effect in operation there.

If I am attacked I figure its fair game to respond in kind. I am impervious to insult and my ego is unassailable. I am kind to animals, children and women. However, I am ruthless with those that deserve to be put in their place. I'm a barrister. This tyoe of "debate" is just a busman's holiday for me. Give up now and save your sanity.

You're an idiot. How's that?

You win! I don't care to put anymore effort in this. If your right, your right, but if your wrong than admit it - it's okay! Not everyone can know everything. But keep misinformation to minimum and stop spreading opinions like they are facts. Everyone has an opinion and particular way they operate - but this doesn't make it right. Fact - having your car in neutral at a stop/light is an automatic fail during a drivers exam(at least in Ontario). But us manual drivers know that it's better for the longevity of the manual transmission components to be in neutral. We also learned to keep our hands off the gear lever while driving, as you have pointed out in another thread causes undo wear on the components inside the transmission. That is something we've learned from generations before us.

Thanks for the compliment.

[that_guy]

Originally Posted by Gords_zenith

You win! I don't care to put anymore effort in this. If your right, your right, but if your wrong than admit it - it's okay! Not everyone can know everything. But keep misinformation to minimum and stop spreading opinions like they are facts. Everyone has an opinion and particular way they operate - but this doesn't make it right. Fact - having your car in neutral at a stop/light is an automatic fail during a drivers exam(at least in Ontario). But us manual drivers know that it's better for the longevity of the manual transmission components to be in neutral. We also learned to keep our hands off the gear lever while driving, as you have pointed out in another thread causes undo wear on the components inside the transmission. That is something we've learned from generations before us.

Thanks for the compliment.

I actually just logged in to give you an e-thumbs up.

[7thgear]

LAWYER'S GONNA LAWYER

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Most of my posts are intended to add to the information available to readers

Bullshit, you just can't help yourself and seek out every possible situation to argue. It's probably a good thing you're a lawyer, you wouldn't last 5 minutes in any other line of work.

Do you go to the doctor just so you can tell him what's wrong with you and then argue when he doesn't agree?

Originally Posted by Suberman

You all have it completely backwards, which is unsurprising given your other posts on handling topics.

So now you're arguing that you know more about handling dynamics of a car than two more people that actually track their cars? One a time attack instructor, one that competes at a high level for autoslalom?

I'm going to ask you again (since you keep avoiding the question), what exactly is your track/autoslalom/hdpe experience? What does understeer feel like at the steering wheel? Not the internet definition, your description of what it actually feels like.

Originally Posted by Suberman

I'd bet money my IQ is far higher than yours and I don't even know you.

You want a bet? Get you, and your BRZ, to the GTA and we'll see who is faster lapping or at an autoslalom. Come in July with whatever super sticky tires you want, I'll drive on my snows. I'll put up $1k that you don't come close.

[7thgear]

i think that's the issue here, he's one of those people that think real world experience is not nessesary for the affirmation of his knowledge

he thinks driving on the streets is plenty


this whole thing reminded me of this scene... only Suberman's the young guy.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM-gZintWDc"][Great Movie Scenes] Good Will Hunting - Park Scene - YouTube[/ame]

[wbradley]

Wow I cant help but comment that Suberman seems like a real likable guy. <not>

Stick to being whatever you are, Mr. self-proclaimed genius. Don't claim to be an expert on things that you are not. A truly wise man admits he doesn't know everything.

Just because you are a lawyer doesn't mean you are a genius, or even a good lawyer for that matter. So why don't you tell us what your IQ is....?

[norsamerican]

A wise and humble man knows when he is wrong and can admit it. Suberman thanks for the laughs. Your vocabulary and justification of how you have a higher IQ in an online forum is lame and completely off topic. Thanks for playing.

Ibhepostsagain

[Hardy]

Just. Can't. Take. Eyes. Off. This. Thread.....

[Suberman]

Paul Frere

Who he was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Frère

His books:


http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Frere/e/B000AP9I4Y

Read the "sports car and competition driving"

What he says about high performance driving:

P 56

"when,..., the slip angle of the front wheels is smaller than the slip angle of the rear wheels, the vehicle is said to oversteer"

P 59

" It is generally recognized that for the non- expert driver, it is best for a car to understeer consistently"

P 63

"In racing parlance, however, a car is usually said to be drifting when its front wheels are still more or less pointed in the direction of the bend to be taken..."

"From this it follows that only an understeering car can be drifted..."

P 68

" On high grip surfaces, modern high-performance tires do not allow large drift angles to be used, as the grip drops rather sharply as soon as the combination of lateral and driving force break the grip..."

Etc etc. no further comment is required. The real expert has spoken.

[Want.FR-S]

Talking about understanding (or misunderstanding or misquote)... Personally I do not know Paul Frere, but based on wiki page he seems to have quite a credential to talk about car racing. Now, I will embedded my comments on the items that you listed:

Paul Frere

Who he was: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Fr%C3%A8re"]Paul Frère - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
His books: http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Frere/e/B000AP9I4Y

Read the "sports car and competition driving"

What he says about high performance driving:

P 56

"when,..., the slip angle of the front wheels is smaller than the slip angle of the rear wheels, the vehicle is said to oversteer"

Correct, there is no dispute about the definition of understeer and oversteer. If the slip angle up front is larger than that in the rear, you have understeer.

P 59

" It is generally recognized that for the non- expert driver, it is best for a car to understeer consistently"

Do you know why this is the case? An understeer car during an emergency condition is easier to recover by slowing down (braking) and turning more (by turning more, more understeer is introduced. Thus force the tire to slow down and hopefully regain grip to recover the slide) for a novice driver. Almost all the production street cars are built with understeer because of this. This is a safety feature, not because it is better in terms of performance.

Here is a lengthy explanation about understeer: http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Understeer

P 63

"In racing parlance, however, a car is usually said to be drifting when its front wheels are still more or less pointed in the direction of the bend to be taken..."

"From this it follows that only an understeering car can be drifted..."

I guess this is where you misunderstood the whole point of preferring understeer or oversteer. In many case, said by many former or current racing drivers, the race car runs the fastest lap time when the car just *oversteer* a bit during the cornering to have better turn-in, while the back end slide a bit with access (gas) pedal control to turn. It seems that Paul Frere is saying the same thing: rear wheels drift while front wheels are still pointing to the direction.

I am not sure if the second sentence is coming from Paul because that does not make sense. One can drift an understeer car (FWD) by yanking the e-brake, one can also drift an neutral or oversteer with abruptly engine output (lead foot). It is not only an *understeering* car that can be drifted. Many types of cars can be drifted with a good driver.

I attach a video from Martin Brundle talking about understeer/oversteer with a F1 car here. Notice in the video he can setup the car with oversteer simply by reducing the wing angle (reduce downforce) or understeer with removing part of the front wing (reduce downforce). Both changes are done on the aero along.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyS5ndoA90I"]F1 Driving Lesson - YouTube[/ame]

P 68

" On high grip surfaces, modern high-performance tires do not allow large drift angles to be used, as the grip drops rather sharply as soon as the combination of lateral and driving force break the grip..."

If I understand this correctly, he said the high performance tires drops the grip sharply once you are over the limit. That is pretty bad in terms of tires because it becomes very hard to find the limit and play with it. Imagine when you are exiting the corner by gradually apply the gas pedal, and all of a sudden you apply too much and the rear spins out and then you hit the wall and that is the end of your race. That is very unforgiving in terms of tires performance. IIRC that was the problem with Pirelli tires in the first part of the 2013 F1 season as many people complains about not able to find the limits of the tire...

Etc etc. no further comment is required. The real expert has spoken.

================================================== =====

Also, if I may point out in post #241 you said:

A car must be set up to understeer to have any hope of getting its power down in a corner.

A car does not need to be setup to have understeer in order to put power down. If that was the case, explain to me why all the high performance cars like F1 and hyper/super cars all have engine at the rear rather than to the front. As those cars can easilly spin out the rear end like crazy. In order to put more power down, you have to put more weight down on the *driving wheel* to force the tire to accept more torque. This includes both the effect of weight transfer and the center of gravity of the car. During starting up, the weight transfer to the rear. Thus, to start faster, you need to put more torque to the rear wheel to start faster. By having weight more to the rear (rear bias), those racing and hyper/super car can accept more torque during start up.

In order to corner the fastest, you need a great turn-in on the front wheel. The rear wheel is working on maximum frontal and lateral grips at its limit with a balanced car. Sometimes, if you find your cannot rotate fast enough to get the angle on exit quickly, you carefully press the gas padel further to introduce a bit oversteer to change the angle of the car so that you can return the steering and exit the corner faster. This has been shown in many of Stig's hop lap at the last corner where he oversteer a bit with a MR car to change angle so that he can exit the corner faster. This is also shown in the video from Martin Brundle.
If the car understeer, you simply miss the perfect driving line or with less speed. So even through you can press gas, the car simply will not turn at the optimal line and you just slide off course. That is bad for racing.

Allow me to respond the following paragraph sentence by sentence because there are right and wrong statements mixed to make it specious.

ALL cars have to understeer to initiate a corner.

Hmm.. I think I read it somewhere that said All tires need slip angle to turn, not understeer. In order for a tire to turn its contact patch must be able to twist against the tire angle. It is this elastic force on the tire force the car to turn.

Here is a wiki page that explains slip angle: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_angle"]Slip angle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Understeer defined is slip angles at the front axle exceeding slip angle at the rear axle. That's what understeer means.

This statement is correct.

What I'm complaining about is this car doesn't understeer enough to put its modest power down, proved conclusively by its hopeless winter handling. Actually, it didn't really work well on any road surface but with good enough tires to overwhelm the torque it can be made to drive fairly well on dry pavement.

Now, the car (FR-S/BRZ/GT86) does not have the problem of *not understeer* enough. As explained before, oversteer happens when the slip angle at the front is smaller than that in the rear, and the tire loses grip at the rear and thus *spin* the car into the corner. That will happens in the twins, that will happen in *any* rear-drive car if the driver mishandle the car by turning in too much with too much power input at the rear, or by lifting the power during mid corner to induce snap-oversteer. In a less grip condition like winter, one should even further reducing the entrance speed to ensure the front is gripping and explore the limit at the rear to corner faster, but not faster than the limit of the tires and road at that condition. Simply by adding understeer to the car (increase width of rear tires, change suspension or whatnot) does not help you to corner faster.

Lastly, you mentioned in another thread/post about fish-tailing during start up at straight line at winter times. Remember, in winter time, the road is slippery than that during the summer time, one simply cannot start faster than the grip of the rear tire. If you apply too much torque to the rear in winter time, the car spins. That is not the fault of the car, nor the suspension of the car, that is driver input error.

[OICU812]

Deep snow, bad winters, no this is not the car for you. Which is exactly why I parked mine and several other from the local club also do. Many who have a car they want to keep for years store it and buy a cheap winter beater and save the beating on what their nice car is. Sell the MR2 and get another vehicle, or sell the FR-S and research an AWD if you really must keep the MR2... IMO of course.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Jagular

P 59

" It is generally recognized that for the non- expert driver, it is best for a car to understeer consistently"

Notice that doesn't say faster. If you actually read what I've been saying you'll notice that I have said many times that a car is fastest when it rotates properly into a turn (no understeer), but that the driver has to be good enough to handle it (see the quote about Lewis Hamilton). If you want a car that is easy to drive to it's limit you want some push, but if you want the car to be as fast as possible it needs to have rotate off power. The only way to stop understeer mid corner is to slow down, you can stop oversteer without backing off the power.

I'm going to ask you again (since you keep avoiding the question), what exactly is your track/autoslalom/hdpe experience? What does understeer feel like at the steering wheel? Not the internet definition, your description of what it actually feels like. I'm going to keep asking you this until you actually answer it or give up posting.