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[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by BobbyBlue86

Again, thanks.... but almost everything is marketing fluff at the moment. I know what I want out of the car and I know how I'm going to get it. Ive heard plenty of crap from every bolt on, every tuner, every FI group, so really it all depends on you making your own opinion on things. This is still a VERY brand new platform and with that, there are going to be lots of new findings daily.

I don't do marketing fluff. Ive been trying to organize with locals to do dynos on parts to find real before & after tests. Cant wait for a local to get an OFH local because I want to test it. I just hate working with OFT, its an absolute nightmare for more advanced tuning. But at least it can be tuned. I am also wanting to try a non-catted OEM header to see how it compares.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by BobbyBlue86

How do people have them if they aren't shipped yet? And Im pretty sure all the dyno sheets are showing the torque dip filled in almost completely AND since this is a pretty new product, Im fairly certain things will only get better from here.

Ive said it a few times and ill say it a lot more. I really like what the OFT group has to offer. I understand there are risks and cons, but there is with anything right?

Thank you for the friendly advice, but my other options are not a direction I want to go with.

Edit: I do see that they are shipping next month now, but even still.... Im a very patient guy.

Originally Posted by nelsmar

I don't do marketing fluff. Ive been trying to organize with locals to do dynos on parts to find real before & after tests. Cant wait for a local to get an OFH local because I want to test it. I just hate working with OFT, its an absolute nightmare for more advanced tuning. But at least it can be tuned. I am also wanting to try a non-catted OEM header to see how it compares.

I guess its time I let a few cats out of the bag.... besides they probably would die at some point if I didn't...

I bought an ECUTek Cable for a few reasons but the main two being to take advantage of what's supposed to be better logging.
(I have talked to Shiv personally on this and getting the source code for the current logging so I could have the Dev's at my work look it over. They couldn't because he doesn't seem to know where it is. I am now having them look into making Rom Raider work or any other method for adding tables.)

The other is because I want to get my hands on it and not just judge from the side lines without using it. I have bought Yruyur's cable and I plan on going through Nelsmar most likely for a Lic.

On Headers I can't say I don't see the similarities between the OFH and the Agency Power, but as Shiv even admitted it was someone else's project (the header) that he finished. I see nothing wrong with that.
However I plan on dynoing with my header from Agency Power, the OFH from one of my customers and one of the other designs which I am looking into getting my hands on. I can also throw in my stock header for good measure but were already talking about a lot of time for a car that quite frankly makes less than a 1994 Trans Am did stock. So besides the cost involved, those I will be going to know me and the Vette as well as the RX7 and they will already be giving me a hard time.

I will prove or disprove Marin/Nelsmar's thoughts but I am doing it myself unbiased as well I always want the best and the only person anyone could say I dislike would be John/Visconti and thats mainly just because I think he is a pompous ass.
However you are coming off as very against Shiv and the OFT Nelsmar and honestly its not needed. People will choose who they want to go with. I get that you want to help locals out which is why when you asked me if it upset me I said no it doesn't. But its really starting to come off differently and honestly there is no reason to. Shiv is not local and you are, you will get quite a bit of loyalty and work from the group and others. Quite a few already tell others about you including myself, thats more than enough. The word of mouth will really do far more than pointing out a flaw in another tuner you have not used...

As for its inability to tune, sorry but its not there esp. in the price department. ECUtek costs more for less and I have no problem with Rom Raider.

So honestly you need to stop because flat out its going to end up backfiring and then its going to just bother everyone and thats not what any of us want to see.

[Ninjin]

I get irritated seeing Shiv's header get a lot of praise for being affordable. The fact of the matter is that it is the most overpriced header on the market. His profit margin on the headers is something like 400%. No one else makes that kind of margin on their product. And it's hard get excited about it yet because there have been almost no dyno charts posted by third parties showing a good before and after. I really want to see hard data on this, just like with all the other headers. No one gets a pass, including the JDL on my car. If it sucks, I'll say it sucks too.

As for thinking @nelsmar is being negative. Well, he is. But keep in mind he is coming from the perspective of someone who modifies and flashes tunes a lot. For a user who downloads the OFT tunes from the website and flashes occasionally, the shortcomings of the OFT will be almost imperceptible. Trying to do 20+ ROM revisions and flashes in a single afternoon while fine-tuning will make them more apparent. It's simply not as good a product for that use case.

[EZWood]

Originally Posted by Cross

I guess its time I let a few cats out of the bag.... besides they probably would die at some point if I didn't...

I bought an ECUTek Cable for a few reasons but the main two being to take advantage of what's supposed to be better logging.
(I have talked to Shiv personally on this and getting the source code for the current logging so I could have the Dev's at my work look it over. They couldn't because he doesn't seem to know where it is. I am now having them look into making Rom Raider work or any other method for adding tables.)

The other is because I want to get my hands on it and not just judge from the side lines without using it. I have bought Yruyur's cable and I plan on going through Nelsmar most likely for a Lic.

On Headers I can't say I don't see the similarities between the OFH and the Agency Power, but as Shiv even admitted it was someone else's project (the header) that he finished. I see nothing wrong with that.
However I plan on dynoing with my header from Agency Power, the OFH from one of my customers and one of the other designs which I am looking into getting my hands on. I can also throw in my stock header for good measure but were already talking about a lot of time for a car that quite frankly makes less than a 1994 Trans Am did stock. So besides the cost involved, those I will be going to know me and the Vette as well as the RX7 and they will already be giving me a hard time.

I will prove or disprove Marin/Nelsmar's thoughts but I am doing it myself unbiased as well I always want the best and the only person anyone could say I dislike would be John/Visconti and thats mainly just because I think he is a pompous ass.
However you are coming off as very against Shiv and the OFT Nelsmar and honestly its not needed. People will choose who they want to go with. I get that you want to help locals out which is why when you asked me if it upset me I said no it doesn't. But its really starting to come off differently and honestly there is no reason to. Shiv is not local and you are, you will get quite a bit of loyalty and work from the group and others. Quite a few already tell others about you including myself, thats more than enough. The word of mouth will really do far more than pointing out a flaw in another tuner you have not used...

As for its inability to tune, sorry but its not there esp. in the price department. ECUtek costs more for less and I have no problem with Rom Raider.

So honestly you need to stop because flat out its going to end up backfiring and then its going to just bother everyone and thats not what any of us want to see.

I don't see a big similarity with agency power headers. The ofh looks like a higher quality in regards to the build and they look cleaner.

[nelsmar]

1. I don't need the work. I wasn't planning on tuning full time, I just enjoy it. I make far more money at my day job.
2. I saw a local who was in fact knocking on E85 tune from shiv, so yes I have first hand experience with shiv's base maps.
3. I have used rom raider, tuner pro, and ecutek a fair bit. Ecutek being the easiest to use for changes to actual files. Rom raider being second, and tunerpro save me. Please.
4. Shiv is a marketing wonder. He skews perspective a lot and I do not like it. He uses unfair dynos in every before & after I have ever seen.
5. I am not trying to gain something by pointing out problems with another tuner.
6. Shiv makes generic base maps that are 1 size fit "most".
7. OFT is great for canned tunes. It is quite convinent compared to ecutek.
8. I tried to use OFT for a local today. I couldn't even get the software to work it constantly crashed, was slow, and we gave up.
9. Ecutek costs more, but has far far more for a tuner. However for a consumer that will not be getting a custom tune, this is worthless. If you are just going to do minor bolt ons and are okay with the extra time it takes to tune MAF scale then it is just fine. You could however just get an ecutek license and flash shiv's tunes onto your car instead. This will save you a decent amount of money over the cost of an OFT. I do still however recommend OFT for this "canned tune" scenario. I do not recommend OFT for people who want to go to a tuner and get a quality tune as the cost per hour of tuner rates & dyno time will exceed the price difference of ecutek vs the OFT.

Simple fact is shiv is talking out of his ass on his OFH and I am more than willing to tune anyone on ecutek that wants to buy one and do back to back with OEM header for free. I'll get a decent dyno rate if they will pay for dyno time. I will even pay for the dyno time on the OEM header out of my pocket if needed. Why? Because I don't like shiv's false advertisements. He is advertising a wonderful torque gain from his header. But if you look at someone who self-tuned their car such as mad_sb you can see he made the same gains in the torque dip:


Here is shiv's OFH + 91 octane, vs OEM header + 91 octane (red) vs OEM car. I can't recall what was done on the OEM but it was very minor. Mind you i merged these in photoshop. Pretty sweet torque dip gains from the flash and no header!


I am simply trying to spread truth not attach tuners like shiv did to make profit. If OFT was desired by tuners you would see more threads asking how to tune with it, and why certain features were missing. But most users of OFT are fine with the OTS maps and wont ever use a custom tune. For most basic mods this is fine. You could get a few extra HP with a custom tune but for an NA car it is barely worth the $$ for a full custom tune.

I j

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Ninjin

I get irritated seeing Shiv's header get a lot of praise for being affordable. The fact of the matter is that it is the most overpriced header on the market. His profit margin on the headers is something like 400%. No one else makes that kind of margin on their product. And it's hard get excited about it yet because there have been almost no dyno charts posted by third parties showing a good before and after. I really want to see hard data on this, just like with all the other headers. No one gets a pass, including the JDL on my car. If it sucks, I'll say it sucks too.

As for thinking @nelsmar is being negative. Well, he is. But keep in mind he is coming from the perspective of someone who modifies and flashes tunes a lot. For a user who downloads the OFT tunes from the website and flashes occasionally, the shortcomings of the OFT will be almost imperceptible. Trying to do 20+ ROM revisions and flashes in a single afternoon while fine-tuning will make them more apparent. It's simply not as good a product for that use case.

Would that be like the Agency Power Header? I mean there were dyno's on that one right?

How about the fact that you have no proof on the profit margin, I challenge you to offer it. I don't even know but flat out its cheaper than others offered yet for some reason thats against what you want? I don't even sign off on it one way or the other hints my test but I don't run in biased without owning anything from the seller.

I tried to keep this nice but enough is enough, He is familiar with tuning on one platform. I have been tuning for over 5 years on Megasquirt and HP Tuners I am not running around telling people how bad everyone else is. You want skill I have flashed over 50 revisions in a day to my tunes on E85 and N/A Applications when everyone still thought it was pointless years ago. I have logs from years ago and files of every car and truck I have tuned.
I am by no means a tuning expert and frankly I don't want the responsibility it ensues because once you start tuning you see how fast it changes with technology and how much you continue to learn as time goes on.

You want to be the best suddenly or just bad mouth someone who neither of you own a single product from yet you're claiming unbias comments. Yeah sorry but I am calling BS.

Why the hell do you need to smear someone elses name to promote someone else who locals alreadly thought well of?

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by Ninjin

As for thinking @nelsmar is being negative. Well, he is. But keep in mind he is coming from the perspective of someone who modifies and flashes tunes a lot. For a user who downloads the OFT tunes from the website and flashes occasionally, the shortcomings of the OFT will be almost imperceptible. Trying to do 20+ ROM revisions and flashes in a single afternoon while fine-tuning will make them more apparent. It's simply not as good a product for that use case.

^^^ This. I hate how slow ecutek is and it makes me want physically hurt my self. Anything that slows this process down more is just that much more irritable. And I typically put 4 flashes on a car when testing and test each map... so this is 4x faster than flashing 4 times! Most dynos are 80-120hr. If you spend 4 minutes per flash and you have to flash an extra 3x that is 12 minutes. That saves me or the owner $16-$24 in a single test!

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by Cross

You want to be the best suddenly or just bad mouth someone who neither of you own a single product from yet you're claiming unbias comments. Yeah sorry but I am calling BS.

Why the hell do you need to smear someone elses name to promote someone else who locals alreadly thought well of?

It is an inferior product. Period. Tactrix cable + ecu flash + rom raider is superior. It has more logging ability and costs less than 1/2 the price. It will also have more features down the road and lets me log right to the computer vs having a "middle man". So no. I am not talking bad on a product because i am biased. I am talking bad because it is a bad product. If you want open source use real open source. Go with a tactrix cable. Sure it is not complete yet, sure it isn't solid yet. But I feel OFT is also not done yet as it does not have fully capable logging as of yet. Once the rest of the open source logging is completed OFT will have very little positive benefits over a tactrix cable. The only benefit being that you have a visual screen to check logging data while sitting in the car without a laptop. However if I am tuning a car i typically have a laptop.

[nelsmar]

You have to also note that I question all products. Even nameless! Hell nameless even contacted me recently to talk about tuning and my experiences on this platform. I told them I don't take bullshit and cant wait to get both an OFH & a Nameless header locally to test on. And I hope they both work out fantastically. Because if so, guess what? Awesome we would have a cheap header and a premium header available to us all!

[captain_jack]

Originally Posted by brenesk91

just ordered clear side markers +5hp

Cancel it kevin, bill has some he doesnt want. You can buy his im sure.

sent from your mom

[Ninjin]

Originally Posted by Cross

Would that be like the Agency Power Header? I mean there were dyno's on that one right?

How about the fact that you have no proof on the profit margin, I challenge you to offer it. I don't even know but flat out its cheaper than others offered yet for some reason thats against what you want? I don't even sign off on it one way or the other hints my test but I don't run in biased without owning anything from the seller.

I tried to keep this nice but enough is enough, He is familiar with tuning on one platform. I have been tuning for over 5 years on Megasquirt and HP Tuners I am not running around telling people how bad everyone else is. You want skill I have flashed over 50 revisions in a day to my tunes on E85 and N/A Applications when everyone still thought it was pointless years ago. I have logs from years ago and files of every car and truck I have tuned.
I am by no means a tuning expert and frankly I don't want the responsibility it ensues because once you start tuning you see how fast it changes with technology and how much you continue to learn as time goes on.

You want to be the best suddenly or just bad mouth someone who neither of you own a single product from yet you're claiming unbias comments. Yeah sorry but I am calling BS.

Why the hell do you need to smear someone elses name to promote someone else who locals alreadly thought well of?

Look, I'm not trying to smear anyone here. I'm not digging up dirt. I'm not trying to look into a particular tuner's past and find skeletons in their closet. The fact is that right now there is a Shiv love-fest going on in the forums. Just like there was an FA20Club love-fest this past year. And a Visconti one before that. There always seems to be one tuner who is more vocal and better at advertising than the competition who gets a disproportionate amount of attention. Shit be cyclical, yo.

And no, I'm not involved in the industry enough to be privy to first-hand evidence of what Shiv's cost is for either of his products. What I have heard is second hand. But when I see Shiv post stuff like the following quote, and I remember what his cost supposedly is, it does make me angry:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

We don't necessarily believe in trying to get as much profit as possible out of any given item. We would rather sell in quantity and retain goodwill from our customers. Same reason the OFT is only $495 and the header not that much more. And yes, we will have additional hardware for same as they get towards the final steps of development/testing

It irritates me that he would say stuff like that while charging a very hefty markup on the products he sells. And yes, I know he has put a lot of work into his tunes and I know and would tell anyone that Shiv's tunes are reliable and make power. However, my thinking is that if I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars improving the performance of my car, I want the most I can get, even if it means spending more. I acknowledge that not everyone will share in this philosophy, which is why I said earlier that the OFT is a good product for some owners.

And you may not have been around earlier when I was having issues with my JDL header, but I was very open about the shortcomings of the product (I think @Bonks86 and @WithNolock have also been honest about their experiences). It's not all gumdrops and sunshine, but in the end, we got good performance out of it and at least I feel that we helped the company improve their product.

P.S. AP header makes decent power, @EZWood's car did very well at the dyno day.

[oldpueblo]

Originally Posted by captain_jack

Cancel it kevin, bill has some he doesnt want. You can buy his im sure.

sent from your mom

If he doesn't, I'd be interested. Assuming they're clear. I hadn't gotten around to ordering any yet.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

1. I don't need the work. I wasn't planning on tuning full time, I just enjoy it. I make far more money at my day job.
2. I saw a local who was in fact knocking on E85 tune from shiv, so yes I have first hand experience with shiv's base maps.
3. I have used rom raider, tuner pro, and ecutek a fair bit. Ecutek being the easiest to use for changes to actual files. Rom raider being second, and tunerpro save me. Please.
4. Shiv is a marketing wonder. He skews perspective a lot and I do not like it. He uses unfair dynos in every before & after I have ever seen.
5. I am not trying to gain something by pointing out problems with another tuner.
6. Shiv makes generic base maps that are 1 size fit "most".
7. OFT is great for canned tunes. It is quite convinent compared to ecutek.
8. I tried to use OFT for a local today. I couldn't even get the software to work it constantly crashed, was slow, and we gave up.
9. Ecutek costs more, but has far far more for a tuner. However for a consumer that will not be getting a custom tune, this is worthless. If you are just going to do minor bolt ons and are okay with the extra time it takes to tune MAF scale then it is just fine. You could however just get an ecutek license and flash shiv's tunes onto your car instead. This will save you a decent amount of money over the cost of an OFT. I do still however recommend OFT for this "canned tune" scenario. I do not recommend OFT for people who want to go to a tuner and get a quality tune as the cost per hour of tuner rates & dyno time will exceed the price difference of ecutek vs the OFT.

Simple fact is shiv is talking out of his ass on his OFH and I am more than willing to tune anyone on ecutek that wants to buy one and do back to back with OEM header for free. I'll get a decent dyno rate if they will pay for dyno time. I will even pay for the dyno time on the OEM header out of my pocket if needed. Why? Because I don't like shiv's false advertisements. He is advertising a wonderful torque gain from his header. But if you look at someone who self-tuned their car such as mad_sb you can see he made the same gains in the torque dip:
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps0867d333.jpg

Here is shiv's OFH + 91 octane, vs OEM header + 91 octane (red) vs OEM car. I can't recall what was done on the OEM but it was very minor. Mind you i merged these in photoshop. Pretty sweet torque dip gains from the flash and no header!
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...t/combined.jpg

I am simply trying to spread truth not attach tuners like shiv did to make profit. If OFT was desired by tuners you would see more threads asking how to tune with it, and why certain features were missing. But most users of OFT are fine with the OTS maps and wont ever use a custom tune. For most basic mods this is fine. You could get a few extra HP with a custom tune but for an NA car it is barely worth the $$ for a full custom tune.

I j

This is not going to end is it, alright Marin I will do this I had a feeling it might happen but lets go.
1) I would hope so you have been burning through it lately, so unless your like me and make a nice salary then your nuts. This proves nothing.

2) You saw someone running a canned off the shelf tune to which even Shiv said its unknown but should be fine after a few others tried it but even to this day he mentioned the EL is better suited. However lets make this clear since you are leaving out important information with E85 and N/A Applications:
Means Based Timing (MBT)
This is the point where you pass the amount of timing thats advantageous but basically you are not knocking. Aka I could run 32 degrees of timing on my Original Vette using E85 however it stopped making power at 27-28 degrees. Th more timing it got the more it started to drop power.
However the other side of this is the fact of how resistant E85 is to knocking, so even if you got it to (which in this case was fairly safe to say was caused by the back pressure of the cats in the system still) no harm was presented to the motor. Why because again E85 is in itself its own safety. No damage was possible esp. when compared to gas and the fact we all know knock occurs on the crappy gas we get here which is another thing that makes E85 so appealing.

3)I have them all as well and none of them are "Oh my god these rock", HP Tuners Rocks, Rom Raider and ECUTek's more expensive (try 900) option is fine but Rom Raider is a better choice for its open group support. Hell Tuner Studio for Megasquirt has better logging than a 900 setup with ECUTek and it cost me 40.00 back in the MS1/MS2 era with lifetime updates.
As for Tuner Pro you brought it up as being horrible and its not my personal choice but frankly for the Price ECUTek sucks. HP Tuners allows you to tune 5 vehicles, bring in a wideband signal and log it with everything else the car is doing and without the need to use some other sensors signal you can just plug into the device. Along with many other controls all for less than 700! Go find another hill to die on because ECUTek is not the top of the hill by far.

4) So are many others selling car parts but the problem is you have NOTHING to back up your claims. Hell Marin you were telling me how great John/Vinscoti was. (Just this last week) WTF?! Remember when everyone jumped on a local shop all over the boards?! I guess those were wrong but you, you're right. BS.

5) Then why do you feel the need to repeatedly do it? You constantly feel the need to go after the OFT and Shiv Jesus man did he sleep with your sister? Its getting creepy.

6) Yes thats called an off the shelf guess what Toni and John do similar things. The thing that bothers you is that you personally do not like it. But frankly for knowing so much you let someone else who you refuse to bad mouth blow up your car when apparently you should have flat out known better. Why?
Off the Shelf means safe but could be tweaked further. So far many seem very happy with it and for some reason that bothers you a lot.

7) This has been covered enough and is an extension of prior numbered points and other posts I have made tonight. Its been beaten enough.

8) I have run into issues before even today its documented with Shiv's new .Dev Beta releases that I am not as fond of. But I have never had a buggy issue. However with all the units sold I am sure at some point one is going to have an issue, but has anyone tried to warranty one and ran into an issue? Hell even today shiv was answering on the forums and by email. Seems like there is no way to please you in his arena, no matter what you don't like him and thats fine but stop running round acting like a damn child about it. You don't like him and others are fine with him thats pretty normal in the real world.

9)Now people are talking out of their ass but its only Shiv, this coming from someone who has nothing on paper.
Let me put it this way, if they go this cheaper route you mention, go on a cruise over 300 miles and need to switch to gas again does your cheaper option work? I mean you are going to be right there to switch it right then right? Your going to have a central location you post updates to your tunes when you make revisions and they can handle that right?

This is really going to far, your being an ass Marin and unlike anyone else I will call anyone out on it. I don't care who likes you or if I think your a decent guy. Your being a **** and you never needed to be but I have no problem poking holes in everything you have claimed. Your no master tuner you just got your learners kit and think you can tune. You are being foolish.

[BobbyBlue86]

Originally Posted by Ninjin

I get irritated seeing Shiv's header get a lot of praise for being affordable. The fact of the matter is that it is the most overpriced header on the market. His profit margin on the headers is something like 400%. No one else makes that kind of margin on their product. And it's hard get excited about it yet because there have been almost no dyno charts posted by third parties showing a good before and after. I really want to see hard data on this, just like with all the other headers. No one gets a pass, including the JDL on my car. If it sucks, I'll say it sucks too.

As for thinking @nelsmar is being negative. Well, he is. But keep in mind he is coming from the perspective of someone who modifies and flashes tunes a lot. For a user who downloads the OFT tunes from the website and flashes occasionally, the shortcomings of the OFT will be almost imperceptible. Trying to do 20+ ROM revisions and flashes in a single afternoon while fine-tuning will make them more apparent. It's simply not as good a product for that use case.

Where did you get the 400% from?

Having someone take cut 2.5 in steel and assemble it will never cost $500. Trust me I take 100k worth of aluminum and titanium and build a helicopter and sell it for 2.5 million. There are other things attached to production of parts.

For example. That's probably $100 wroth of metal. Now someone has to build it. And from looking into myself it looks like a header takes about a day to fab. So 8 hour work day times maybe $20 an hour? That's $160. So $260 now at that point. Next someone has to sell it. So we pay him too. And now! Some one has to pay all these people but he takes a cut to. Everything adds up quickly.

So really, 400% profit?