Test drove BRZ, a few observations/questions

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

The new NSX is going to be waaaaaay more expensive (possibly by as much as $100k) as a base Cayman S, probably.

Maybe, though you can easily spend well above $100k on a Cayman S, depending on the options. I'm more curious about the older NSX though, since it seems like it was developed with a similar goal in mind (mid engine, lightweight, handling-focused but still usable on normal roads)...

[bestwheelbase]

NSX, like MKiV Supra, varies widely. Often neglected and poorly maintained, with lots of mods but little cohesiveness. The late cars are holding good value, the early cars are often overpriced and under-maintained. They are incredibly enjoyable, if you find a good one that hasn't changed hands every four years.

What a beautiful shape.

[go2brz]

Several automotive magazines and blogs have had small articles, many prompted by irate customer complaints about Porsche engine failures and other failures at low mileage. Some are just out of warranty, but some are not. The problem seemed to be that Porsche is not taking responsbilbity for them at all leaving a lot of irate Porsche. Porsche Customer Service has been roasted in many "letter to the editor" of a few major automotive magazines. Lots of horror stories out there if you look for them. From what I gathered it was a problem in the last generation engine that was allowing total engine failure at just 60 to 70K miles. Many of them still had warranty, but even for those who did not have extended coverage they feel that a car of that expense should not be losing so many engines, and that Porsche has "some" responiblity in this. But Porsche is being very stubborn and leaving many good customers who loved Porsche in the breach for the total expense of rebuiling these engines. Here a a few things I found quickly:

http://www.customerservicescoreboard.com/Porsche

http://www.planet-9.com/987-cayman-b...vice-joke.html

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/porsch...eorgia-1059611

Tried to search online for the "letters to the editors" from a few magazines, but cannot seem to find those online. They were some of the most damning letters I have seen about a top end car manufacturer in a long time. Most were about engine failures or major problems and complained about how Porsche Customer service was horrible to deal with and many owners saying they could not buy another one with any peace of mind. I also remember one multiple Porsche owner had bought the new year model of the Panamerica. The entire dash instrument panel had gone haywire and needed to be replaced. Even though the new model had been on sale for severa months, Porsche Customer service told him that it was not available in inventory (not even an part number) and would not be for another month or more. (If I bought a $100,000 plus car and got that response I would be pretty disgusted.)

Now this does not mean I don't like Porsche nor am I trying to pick on them. I also considered a used Boxster/Cayman because of the depreciation making them semi-affordable. But the possible costs of repair scared me away, just like it did for a used Lotus, (more for the Lotus). I just recently learned of how many complaints Porsche was getting and how badly their customer service responded to these problems. I would own a NEW one in a minute if I wanted to spend that much money on a car, but I dont' think I would keep it past 40-50K miles. All car companies will have complaints, but when a company that is supposed to be the best at what they do, comes up this short it makes me think twice.

Just posted these for comment and consideration becasue I thought it might be relevant or insightful to some readers. Everyone will have their own opinion on these matters just as they should.

[raul]

Originally Posted by acg2010

You're also going to lose your warranty once you throw on a tune - depending on your dealership. Given the problems some of these cars pushed on the track have, that's a scary dice to roll IMO. CSG Mike and a few others that run theirs at the track have had direct injection failure leading to catastrophic engine failure.

There's a Toyota flash for this. Not every dealer knows about it. Have them call the tech line. However, the notes on that TSB do say that it only happens during shifting from 3-6, going full on-off-on on the throttle.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by go2brz

Here a a few things I found quickly:

http://www.customerservicescoreboard.com/Porsche

http://www.planet-9.com/987-cayman-b...vice-joke.html

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/porsch...eorgia-1059611

I won't argue with you about the fact that they had some serious (and inexcusable) engine problems with the 986/996 engines, but these links don't really seem to support any problem at all. There's a random customer service website with 13 ratings in total (not terribly reliable, as these things go), there's a forum thread which (quite frankly) sounds like an issue with a shady/bad dealership, not with Porsche as a company, and there's a single report of a Cayenne rusting, and I have no idea about the frequency or validity of this (maybe Cayennes rust out all the time and I don't know about it, but this single link doesn't really say much). I could probably find 3 similar links involving dissatisfied customers and bad dealers about nearly every car company out there.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by mkiv808

Couple quick questions:

• For those that have switched to a better tire, for example the Pilot Super Sports - how much does the steering feel change? And with a more aggressive alignment?
• I haven't been able to find a replacement for the silver dash trim, any ideas?

I switched to Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 during the onset of winter. The slightly tighter steering feel can be instantly felt even at slow speeds going straight down the road in the dry. However, when I first got the STI pink springs installed which lowered the car by 0.6", the initial turn in became a little vague. I have since installed the STI flexible strut tower brace and the quick initial turn in feel is back. On cornering now the steering is actually more weighty and the car pitches instantly with steering input. I'm planning to get the STI flexible draw stiffener next to see if the steering feel would be further improved. STI also offers pillow ball front and rear trailing arms which should put more pressure on the contact patch of the tires on cornering. There is no camber adjustment stock with this car.

You can get the black dash trim from Toyota as they come on the FRS.

[Suberman]

Lowering the car will affect toe settings which have a significant effect on steering feel. After you lowered the car did you re-set the toe, especially at the front?

Lowering will alter the toe curve in the sense that the range of toe changes over suspension travel will be different after lowering which will also change steering feel and cannot be changed easily.

I thought rear camber was adjustable.

Front camber is not and rarely is with McPherson struts for two reasons: a big advantage of McPherson struts is the alignment settings are fixed by the suspension points and rarely need correcting and camber adjustment is tricky to provide for with struts and involves clamping bolts holding alignment in slotted holes defeating this big advantage of struts.

[2point0]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Front camber is not and rarely is with McPherson struts for two reasons: a big advantage of McPherson struts is the alignment settings are fixed by the suspension points and rarely need correcting and camber adjustment is tricky to provide for with struts and involves clamping bolts holding alignment in slotted holes defeating this big advantage of struts.

I wouldn't call that an advantage aside from not needing to adjust camber much, if at all, when changing ride height (of course, toe is still an issue there). A good SLA style suspension allows a more conservative camber setting for driving straight, while gaining negative camber upon compression in turns. McP struts are an easier way to keep room in the engine bay and use fewer parts.

[Ganthrithor]

Just piping up to say that I've had my 225 Super Sports on for a few days now and the car feels downright dreamy compared to the stock rubber... much better ride quality, tons more grip, heavier / less-assisted steering feel, etc. The steering feels noticeably livelier now, but the wheel still doesn't torque around in your hands the way it would in a Lotus or Porsche. You can feel more vibrations and loads though with the new tyres... I'd say the steering still feels better than the steering on our '08 BMW but not as communicative as Porsche / unassisted steering.

I'm lowered about an inch on coils and have changed sways and some bushings and added a front tower brace, but I don't have camber plates so my alignment is reasonably close to stock. Can't comment on what the car would feel like with more camber, but I get the impression from reading around here that things only improve with the addition of camber bolts / plates.

[mkiv808]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Also, just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the NSX vs the Cayman S? I love my Cayman, but I have to admit, I've always been really curious how the NSX is to drive and own.

It's been a long time, honestly. I haven't driven an NSX in 10 years.

I do remember it being really fun. The driving position was amazing, the view over the hood was very exotic, the sound of the engine was fantastic. It felt a wee bit underpowered coming from the Supra, but enough to have fun.

The car wasn't as communicative/responsive as the Cayman S. Didn't have quite as much of that magic feel, at least as much as I can remember. Though I went back to another Supra after it and it felt lazy in comparison handling wise. The NSX had a surprising amount of body roll though.

I'd love to drive another. My whole taste in cars has completely changed since then. I also had never tracked/autocrossed a car back then.

[mkiv808]

On Porsche reliability, you can't believe everything you read on the Internet. For every one case you hear about there's hundreds of happy 987'ers. I've met tons of people through PCA that logged many, many track hours on their 987 without any problems. The only issue is oil starvation in extreme cases on long left handers (which are rare at most tracks), which can be remedied by an oil sump system. It's one of the hardiest track platforms out there. From what I've seen, IMS problems are rare on 987's.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by mkiv808

On Porsche reliability, you can't believe everything you read on the Internet. For every one case you hear about there's hundreds of happy 987'ers. I've met tons of people through PCA that logged many, many track hours on their 987 without any problems. The only issue is oil starvation in extreme cases on long left handers (which are rare at most tracks), which can be remedied by an oil sump system. It's one of the hardiest track platforms out there. From what I've seen, IMS problems are rare on 987's.

Yeah they do get a bad rep - for track use age they'll hold up better than most. The problem with Porsche is, a catastrophic failure costs as much as a slightly used FRS and a non catastrophic failure costs as much as a new fr-s/brz motor Well ok maybe exaggerating a little, but not far off at all.


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[993Fan]

Originally Posted by mkiv808

On Porsche reliability... It's one of the hardiest track platforms out there.

They say a Porsche will always win if the race is long enough...

[N1rve]

Originally Posted by 993Fan

They say a Porsche will always win if the race is long enough...

I think a Prius would win if the race is long enough..