Test drove BRZ, a few observations/questions

[mkiv808]

So, I've had a wide range of cars over the years. MK4 Supra's (hence the username), NSX, C5 Z06, C6, Elise, Cayman S, MK5 GTI, and most recently an E92 M3.

Selling the Cayman S was a mistake, and that's been my favorite of the lot. It's just a perfect balance of handling, feel, quality, and just enough power (I had a 2006).

The M3 is a good car, but for what I paid - I just don't love it. It's a lot of money to not love something, at least in my eyes. I got it to reduce the need for having 2 cars (I couldn't bring myself to drive the Cayman in winter), but wound up buying a 2001 Wrangler on a whim anyway. So that's that.

It has big power, I'm at around 420hp at the moment - but that's not really my priority. I did own and love an Elise at one point, after all. The weight of the car is apparent, and it was alright at the track - but the Cayman was that much better. Steering feel is good, but the car isn't that tossable/fun. You have to REALLY push it to be fun on the backroads, and that can get a little scary. Whereas the Cayman was fun even at low speeds. The epitome of that effect was the Elise, which was ridiculously fun at any speed with the most amazing steering ever - but completely impractical and kind of scary on public roads (due to small size/safety factors).

So recently I test drove a brand new 981 Cayman S and was completely floored. An amazing, amazing car. Truly the most perfect thing I've ever driven, and such a great interior - along with what is, IMO, a much more beautiful car than the last generation. Which I thought looked better than most people did.

I just can't stomach dropping $75,000 on a car that'll be worth $45,000 in a couple years. I'd rather wait and buy the $45,000 car. Which I plan on. In the meantime, the M3 just isn't worth keeping. I was dead set on buying a used ~2007 Cayman S to bide the time, when I decided on a whim to test drive a BRZ.

Impressions:

Pros: Very fun car. I love how it invites being thrown around. My old GTI actually had that trait, but wasn't nearly as balanced and planted. The shifter, a big downside on the M3, is near perfection. It actually reminds me of the shifter on the new Cayman S, which is an incredibly high praise. Throwing it around on the tight, windy roads that we have around here in abundance (I'm in CT) was very fun. I managed to get the back out at one point, which was amusing. Getting the back out on the M3 requires some serious commitment. Pedal placement seemed perfect and invited heel-toe practicing. I find heel-toeing a lot easier on the track in most cars since you go deeper into the brake pedal, so I imagine it only gets better in that setting. Excellent brake feel. The interior was basic, but did not feel flimsy. The M3 has a superior interior, but not as superior as its price would suggest.

Cons: I expected it to be down on power, but it felt even less impressive than I expected. Even my GTI, which had a worse power-to-weight felt faster in a straight line. It's a steady build among the RPM's, but is completely underwhelming. I think I would be OK with that fact just given how fun it is to throw around in corners and the fact that there isn't a ton of places in my area to really wind a car out anyway (I rarely give the M3 the full beans). Did not like the silver dash trim, and the lack of a cover on the center console felt like it was incomplete. I liked the steering, but didn't feel like it was as good as the press has been hyping. It's very responsive, but I didn't get a lot of tactile feedback from the road, and also did not feel like it weighted-up linearly in cornering. The weight felt similar no matter the cornering forces. It felt inferior to the M3 in that sense, though was more responsive. Navigation interface felt really cheap/unresponsive.

So, now it's decision time. Getting a BRZ makes a lot of financial sense and allows me to save up properly for the 981 Cayman S. I also like the idea of having a car I can flog without worrying about expensive repairs, brakes, tires, etc. I can drive to the track with minimal gas money, drive it ragged at the track, and operational costs will be low - along with a full warranty. I also feel as if the car will be a good learning tool at the track. I'm used to cars with very high limits that I'm nowhere near reaching, whereas with this car I'll get to safely feel and learn more of the chassis dynamics. Same goes on the street. The idea of a dynamic tail-end without impending doom is alluring.

The Cayman is appealing due to the added power/torque, the proven track behavior (for me), the magical steering (sorry BRZ), and the overall quality and fit/finish of the interior. The downside is brakes/tires cost quite a bit more for track duties, and even though my 2006 was rock solid reliable - a lack of warranty is always slightly unnerving. It's also going to be a smidgen more expensive (a used 07 is about $30,000 compared to $23,000 for a used BRZ), though insurance quotes were identical.

Couple quick questions:

• For those that have switched to a better tire, for example the Pilot Super Sports - how much does the steering feel change? And with a more aggressive alignment?
• I haven't been able to find a replacement for the silver dash trim, any ideas?
• I've been reading up on power upgrades. I considered possibly going the turbo/supercharger route, but I might as well get a Cayman at that point considering what it may do to reliability and voiding the warranty, as well as the cost. So simple bolt-ons would be where I would go. It seems like header, front pipe, tune, and maybe lighter weight drive shaft are the more effective power mods? I don't think I would do headers, as I'd like to avoid CEL's and that whole hassle. Catless front pipe seems viable, as does a piggyback tune that I can reverse to keep the warranty intact. Maybe intake+exhaust for sound. Maybe aluminum driveshaft. Can I expect 15-20hp increase from those mods? I don't really care about power gains as much as I'd like for the car to feel more responsive and feel like it pulls a little better. Lighter weight wheels would probably be a good investment too.
• How are these cars stock on the track for an intermediate level driver? Mostly concerned about brake fade.

Gonna be a tough choice, which is a testament to this car! It's really great that someone is making a car with this level of fun and purity at this price point.

[Turbo95eg6]

I'll just throw in what I know... They have factory black dash trims available, or the FRS ones that are textured black. As far as power, no car has ever been considered "fast" from the factory for me... My last car ran mid 12's but I still wasn't satisfied.. I'd worry about the performance later, thats the reason for aftermarket parts (obviously you know this). I think you'll be happy with either car.

[robot]

JPM Coachworks makes a nice alcantara cover for the dash that gets rid of the silver. http://www.jpmcoachworks.com/jpm/sho...on-bonded.html

There is a single piece one as well.

For power I'd go supercharger. NA bolt ons look to be frustrating from my reading. However, some are said to improve the feel of the car.

The stock pads will fade at the track. Track pads and DOT4 fluid are recommended.

[m.wood0213]

look youre going from high powered high priced cars to the new cheap and cheerful RWD. Power will feel lacking when getting out of the others into a BRZ. I find myself loving the power available. On the back roads its just low enough to allow you to redline a couple gears while not going over speed limit. Steering can not be beat and honestly interior is quite nice imo. Overall, you need to be happy with the car. Maybe look at a Z Genisis Coupe or used Cayman. I love my BRZ and later Ill get a WRX for practicality.

[mkiv808]

Originally Posted by m.wood0213

Maybe look at a Z Genisis Coupe or used Cayman.

I hate the way the 370Z and Genesis Coupe drive. Very boring. The 350Z is fun, but I can't get over the styling and cheap feel.

Originally Posted by m.wood0213

Steering can not be beat

It's very good, in the 99th percentile of all car steering I'm sure - but it can't compare to the Cayman or Elise. Sorry chaps.

[m.wood0213]

Originally Posted by mkiv808

It's very good, in the 99th percentile of all car steering I'm sure - but it can't compare to the Cayman or Elise. Sorry chaps.

Sounds like youre not convinced the BRZ is a good fit. So whats youre gut telling you?

[Bad Habits]

$ = HP, same as any car and this is no exception. 15-20hp is easy to pick up with the correct mods. You can be na and be in the 200 hp range easy from what I have seen.

As far as the dash there are lots of options from going alcantara to paint it, wrap it, think there might be a jdm kit available etc.

FI = instant gratification - bolt on heaven but its also bolt on bye bye warranty

Aluminum drive shafts are out there as well as carbon fiber - get rid of the 2 piece vs the one piece, not sure on the weight savings but i think its half of oem iirc

Lots of tuning options out there, I am not tuned so I do not have a favorite yet.

Many header options including an upcoming release from ft86 speed factory - it has a
provision for an o2 sensor so there should be no issues there

If you go header might as well change the rest of the exhaust system and again lots of options there.

The Porsche is a great car, I had fun in the Boxster I had and know the Cayman is miles better. Depends on what you are looking for. The frs/brz are fun little cars but its straight up pay for play on the hp side.

[suaveflooder]

Truthfully, I don't think you are gonna be happy with this platform. From what you describe you want, a used cayman is probably going to be your best bet. I'd skip the BRZ.

[acg2010]

You're also going to lose your warranty once you throw on a tune - depending on your dealership. Given the problems some of these cars pushed on the track have, that's a scary dice to roll IMO. CSG Mike and a few others that run theirs at the track have had direct injection failure leading to catastrophic engine failure.

I can't remember the thread, but someone was getting crap from their Subaru dealer about a problem they took it in for because of a tune. Thanks to the WRX/STI community - Subaru is worse on aftermarket mods than Toyota/Scion. They've over time just clamped down and said go fly a kite to people. I know lots will say "but…but…but...Magnuson Moss act," but that could mean having to expend the time and energy to fight Subaru on a warranty claim - not sure if that's what you want.

You're massively downgrading from the cars you've had. The fit and finish on these isn't really great (particularly speaking about the interior). I think it's one of the weak points of the car. As someone posted above, JPMC makes a SWEET alcantara dash (I like the two piece better than the one, the one looks long and odd) that classes it up. So you could throw alcantara throughout the car to match the seats, and that definitely brings up its style and class looking.

I'm always of the view that at least one car will sing to you when you're looking for a car. It's always worked out that way with me, and I've bought it, and I've enjoyed the cars. It sounds to me like the Cayman sings to you and the BRZ is what makes sense as a compromise.

I gotta go with suave and say, while it seems like a tough choice, seems like you'll be happier getting back into a cayman.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by mkiv808

[*]For those that have switched to a better tire, for example the Pilot Super Sports - how much does the steering feel change? And with a more aggressive alignment?

Heavier and less tactile, though still snappy/responsive. The main problem is it makes the care an absolute bore at legal speeds or when you aren't hitting the apex of that on-ramp every time. Saving for a 981 is not a bad choice, but I have a feeling this car isn't for you if what you want is a Cayman. Go buy that used 987 you really want to be in is my suggestion.

[Atropine]

I am like you...have had a lot of "higher tier cars".

I got my BRZ because I like its platform a lot and its relatively cheap and warrantied.

My favorite car I have ever owned by driving feel was my AW-11 MR2 (I had two of them...an NA and a S/C one).

I owned a Boxster S and I know what you mean by the steering feel and just how perfect the interior is set up.

If you are not pleased with the BRZ... I would suggest not getting it.

Go check out a New Miata or even a 2004-2005 MazdaSpeed Miata (they were turbo'd and are a lot of fun).

If money isn't a big deal...wait for the Alfa Romeo 4C.
http://4c.alfaromeo.com/


I have been considering getting one of those later.

[strat61caster]

Even if you had $40k to spend modifying this car you'd get out of it every time and compare it to the Cayman you miss so dearly.

Just hop back in the Cayman and save yourself a few years of getting out of your car thinking "what if..."

Side question: Any reason you didn't consider the FRS? A '13 model with the base stereo would eliminate your nav complaint and the silver trim complaint.

Edit: The only reason I say this is because you didn't come here and post about the smiles you had driving it like many others, you posted about how to remove it's inadequacies, those inadequacies will always remain, this is a fundamentally a budget sports car. The people who come around and post how they don't get it do not magically change their tune, they stew until they find an opportunity to jump to a car that suits them better. It sounds like you already know what car suits you, jump on an '06/'07 Cayman, enjoy that for a couple years and then you can decide if you want to spring for the 981, it may be prudent to see how Porsche's next generation shakes out, you never know when another IMS catastrophe will rear it's head.

[Ganthrithor]

Just to echo some of these other dudes, I agree: you've already lived with a Cayman and found it practical enough for your uses-- if your plan is to get into a not-too-expensive car while you wait / save for a 981, then you're gonna be much better off in a 987 than you would be in a BRZ. Even if you were to just live with the power deficiency and do the bare minimum to track-prep a BRZ, you're still gonna take a bigger depreciation hit on the Subaru than you would on a used Cayman. Plus, the Cayman is basically track-ready out of the box, where on the Subaru you're going to want to do some brake work, suspension work, etc just to get a decent alignment and be able to stop the car for the corners (you can't even get any appreciable front camber on our cars on stock suspension without resorting to camber bolts, which I've heard aren't the best idea for a car that gets driven hard).

By the time you've sorted out the suspension, brakes, and gone FI to deal with the power deficiency you're going to be way deeper into a BRZ than you'd be into even a nice used Cayman S (even if all your upgrades go swimmingly), and you won't be getting much of that money back when you eventually sell the car for your 981 upgrade.

I'd say grab a decent used Cayman S, use a fraction of the cash you'd spend on BRZ upgrades for Cayman consumables, and wait for your 981 fix. I'd probably have done a similar thing if I didn't want the Subaru's much more practical layout (2+2 plus reasonable contiguous cargo volume) for my DD. It sounds like you've been able to get by just fine with a two-seater in the past.

Of course, you could also pick up a practical DD and an Elise for the price of a Cayman S as well-- just another option to consider!

Just for reference, I'm about ~$35k into my BRZ (bought new for $27k), and although I'm really pleased with the progress I've made with the car's handling I still haven't touched the stock brakes, it's still got a 100% stock engine, and I still need to get some camber plates for the front so I can get a decent alignment going. I figure I could easily dump another $10k into the car before it feels properly "finished" (supercharger kit, motor mounts, front + rear top mounts, AP racing sprint brake kit, etc). I really love my BRZ, but when I think about the prospect of owning a forty-five-thousand dollar twenty-five-thousand dollar car, even I feel a little ridiculous-- especially when I realize that if I ever sell the car it won't go for much more than a stock car would unless I part it out. Since you're just looking for an interim car, I'd suggest avoiding this kind of scenario: drive the BRZ again and honestly think about whether or not you can live with it mostly-stock. If the answer to that question is, "No," get the Cayman.

[boxer 2.5]

@mkiv808
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/4208940427.html
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