CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[circuithero]

Happy New Years Boys n' Gals!

So I am going to bounce some ideas off our masterminds here and hope they don't mind the discussion or giving me feedback!

Now here is the crux, I am on a self imposed budget that is regulated by more important priorities like karts, bikes and ladyfriend plus her posse of hoodrats. This is primarily a DD that will serve as a more convenient funtoy for touring the northwest tracks I can get to and enable my favorite hobby of porshe hunting (because I love those stupid cars but can't afford a cup car... also it tends to be good for my self esteem).

Unfortunately this is not one of those infuriating "haz 800 dolla need max drop stance kbye" posts either.

So I am looking for maximum VALUE from a dual purpose coilover setup, that will spend 98% of the time in DD duty, but has to perform on a ghetto stripper budget no less (4-10 trackdays per annum).

For example, I learned from personal experience that I like and have got a bit of seat time to appreciate nice stuff. Case and point: wilwood can make a decent brake setup...sometimes. AP Racing? Has not once, NOT ONCE disappointed me. I've driven/raced a few track cars, some race cars and every time, those damn AP racing brakes are so good. So my car will have AP Sprints. Not even up for discussion. Don't even start with me young man.

So the setup:
17x8 RPF1 + 225 RS3
AP Sprints
Oil cooler, FIA Buckets, 6 Point...yada yada
Stock or nearly stock power
Super secret custom trick Porsche magnet alignment
Fancy coilover or Mediocre coilover + Aero
~2600 lb
Lets take BW CW13 for reference for target times

As much as I would like to go to some nice custom valved JRZ/Ohlins/Motons... It is not practical for a DD + temporary track slut and kind of a silly way to spend my dollars on a not so serious compromise setup. I would prefer to leave that to the future w2w toy.

I believe (correct me if I am wrong) it would be more efficient/faster to say run some KW V3 and a Voltex ricer wing than a baller JRZ setup for the same $. I am confident between datalogging and a setup I can dial in the chump change V3 to 90% of the performance of say the JRZ. However I have no personal prior exposure to them V3s. Here is where you guys can write me a nice response and tell me how wrong I am.

Things that "I think" are important but might be expecting too much from ~2k coilover (not expecting individual dynoes here...relax)
-Not too much crosstalk
-Resonably repeatable results (Ie. a 7 click will be about the same when I change and return it to 7 click)
-I am guessing a NF of 1.5-2.0 Hz front and slightly higher on the rear should be a nice compromise between DD/track - did not look at motion ratios yet or what those springs would equal to.

Feel free to throw fancy engineering terms at me, I am casually learning about it and if I don't understand it I can figure it out.

Thanks, Love you all. Good luck with the JRSC and T2. <3

[utekineir]

Been thinking about DIY alignments lately.

Any advice? Especially in terms of effective tools/kits/etc. Idea would be for payback over years on several vehicles, plus a toy.

Not sure I have the patience for the jack stand/ string method. Growing up my father used to set toe with some wood blocks and a tape measure.


Thanks

[Malt]

Originally Posted by normancw

Sorry for the noob question, but after switching from one setting to another, is an alignment required?

Thats part of the reason for getting camber plates. It was confirmed that the Toe does change when changing the camber with the plates... by how much is yet to be determined.

The alignment shop I'm taking it to said they would set both and see how much it changed and let me know. If its just a simple matter of a couple turns on a tie rod end between settings, I'm fairly certain I can handle that.

[Captain Snooze]

Because I can dream I am currently playing with the idea of some "quality" dampers.
What's the practical difference between JRZ's RS Pro and their 2-way race dampers? Both are 2 way adjustable. Am I correct in saying the Pros are built for the customer who will fit these dampers and then won't consider their maintenance for the next gazillion kilometers where as the race dampers will require servicing every other day? Is running a race damper on the street a waste of "usefulness"? (This is fantasy so "waste of money" doesn't enter the picture.) Are race dampers more fragile in a daily driving sort of sense?

Wake me up!
Thanks.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by utekineir

Been thinking about DIY alignments lately.

Any advice? Especially in terms of effective tools/kits/etc. Idea would be for payback over years on several vehicles, plus a toy.

Not sure I have the patience for the jack stand/ string method. Growing up my father used to set toe with some wood blocks and a tape measure.


Thanks

Toe plates and a camber gauge is the easy way, but your thrust angle may be off. Strings is the more correct way to do it, but requires patience. Not too much investment other than patience/time.

- Andy

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Because I can dream I am currently playing with the idea of some "quality" dampers.
What's the practical difference between JRZ's RS Pro and their 2-way race dampers? Both are 2 way adjustable. Am I correct in saying the Pros are built for the customer who will fit these dampers and then won't consider their maintenance for the next gazillion kilometers where as the race dampers will require servicing every other day? Is running a race damper on the street a waste of "usefulness"? (This is fantasy so "waste of money" doesn't enter the picture.) Are race dampers more fragile in a daily driving sort of sense?

Wake me up!
Thanks.

Race shocks are for racing.

Even if the wasting of money didn't bother you it would be a complete pain in the ass. Frequent servicing, possible noise, and the fact that there are a fair amount of hazards on public roads and busting your $8k race shocks because you didn't see a pothole or squirrel would just suck so bad.

Doable, yes...but just don't.

- Andy

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by circuithero

Happy New Years Boys n' Gals!

So I am going to bounce some ideas off our masterminds here and hope they don't mind the discussion or giving me feedback!

Now here is the crux, I am on a self imposed budget that is regulated by more important priorities like karts, bikes and ladyfriend plus her posse of hoodrats. This is primarily a DD that will serve as a more convenient funtoy for touring the northwest tracks I can get to and enable my favorite hobby of porshe hunting (because I love those stupid cars but can't afford a cup car... also it tends to be good for my self esteem).

Unfortunately this is not one of those infuriating "haz 800 dolla need max drop stance kbye" posts either.

So I am looking for maximum VALUE from a dual purpose coilover setup, that will spend 98% of the time in DD duty, but has to perform on a ghetto stripper budget no less (4-10 trackdays per annum).

For example, I learned from personal experience that I like and have got a bit of seat time to appreciate nice stuff. Case and point: wilwood can make a decent brake setup...sometimes. AP Racing? Has not once, NOT ONCE disappointed me. I've driven/raced a few track cars, some race cars and every time, those damn AP racing brakes are so good. So my car will have AP Sprints. Not even up for discussion. Don't even start with me young man.

So the setup:
17x8 RPF1 + 225 RS3
AP Sprints
Oil cooler, FIA Buckets, 6 Point...yada yada
Stock or nearly stock power
Super secret custom trick Porsche magnet alignment
Fancy coilover or Mediocre coilover + Aero
~2600 lb
Lets take BW CW13 for reference for target times

As much as I would like to go to some nice custom valved JRZ/Ohlins/Motons... It is not practical for a DD + temporary track slut and kind of a silly way to spend my dollars on a not so serious compromise setup. I would prefer to leave that to the future w2w toy.

I believe (correct me if I am wrong) it would be more efficient/faster to say run some KW V3 and a Voltex ricer wing than a baller JRZ setup for the same $. I am confident between datalogging and a setup I can dial in the chump change V3 to 90% of the performance of say the JRZ. However I have no personal prior exposure to them V3s. Here is where you guys can write me a nice response and tell me how wrong I am.

Things that "I think" are important but might be expecting too much from ~2k coilover (not expecting individual dynoes here...relax)
-Not too much crosstalk
-Resonably repeatable results (Ie. a 7 click will be about the same when I change and return it to 7 click)
-I am guessing a NF of 1.5-2.0 Hz front and slightly higher on the rear should be a nice compromise between DD/track - did not look at motion ratios yet or what those springs would equal to.

Feel free to throw fancy engineering terms at me, I am casually learning about it and if I don't understand it I can figure it out.

Thanks, Love you all. Good luck with the JRSC and T2. <3

You'll hear a lot of praise for the essex AP brakes from both RCE and CSG...we both run them and enjoy them.

First, skip the V3s and go with RCE Tarmac 2. Based on KW Clubsport but at V3 pricing with a warranty. I don't like to toot our own horn much in this thread, but if you're thinking track time and thinking V3s, you really should consider our Tarmac 2s since they are KW built coilover that's just more aggressive and track focused. They fit your criteria well and there isn't much in that price range that competes (2 way, durable, german, warranty, etc.). I think we have someone local to you that just got them, but my memory is fuzzy from the holiday.

Second, I don't know if you'll see as much benefit from a ricer wing as you think.

I would probably take JRZs over T2s with a wing.

That said, I'd probably take T2s, bushings, AP brakes, and more track time, etc. over just the JRZs.

I do think getting the best shocks you can afford is a good idea, but I don't think that means you should neglect everything else. That's me though. IMO bushings and the little things do make a pretty big difference.

- Andy

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by normancw

Sorry for the noob question, but after switching from one setting to another, is an alignment required?

Should you get one? yes. Absolutely required? no.

But, we're looking for a compromise right? That'll be the most effective way to get more camber without spending too much on alignments.

If you figure out how much of a turn you need on the toe arm... you could do both off of marks/notations/memory.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by circuithero

For example, I learned from personal experience that I like and have got a bit of seat time to appreciate nice stuff. Case and point: wilwood can make a decent brake setup...sometimes. AP Racing? Has not once, NOT ONCE disappointed me. I've driven/raced a few track cars, some race cars and every time, those damn AP racing brakes are so good. So my car will have AP Sprints. Not even up for discussion. Don't even start with me young man.

So the setup:
17x8 RPF1 + 225 RS3
AP Sprints
Oil cooler, FIA Buckets, 6 Point...yada yada
Stock or nearly stock power
Super secret custom trick Porsche magnet alignment
Fancy coilover or Mediocre coilover + Aero
~2600 lb
Lets take BW CW13 for reference for target times

I believe (correct me if I am wrong) it would be more efficient/faster to say run some KW V3 and a Voltex ricer wing than a baller JRZ setup for the same $. I am confident between datalogging and a setup I can dial in the chump change V3 to 90% of the performance of say the JRZ. However I have no personal prior exposure to them V3s. Here is where you guys can write me a nice response and tell me how wrong I am.

Things that "I think" are important but might be expecting too much from ~2k coilover (not expecting individual dynoes here...relax)
-Not too much crosstalk
-Resonably repeatable results (Ie. a 7 click will be about the same when I change and return it to 7 click)
-I am guessing a NF of 1.5-2.0 Hz front and slightly higher on the rear should be a nice compromise between DD/track - did not look at motion ratios yet or what those springs would equal to.

Feel free to throw fancy engineering terms at me, I am casually learning about it and if I don't understand it I can figure it out.

Thanks, Love you all. Good luck with the JRSC and T2. <3

The KW V3 won't be able to absorb the berms and bumps of BW 13CW as well as a properly valved SRC or JRZ, even with the wing. The lower spring rates will have slower transitions and slower response. The twin tube nature of the V3, combined with the lower spring rates, will result in marginally better street ride quality.

You'll need some front aero to balance out a Voltex wing.


I think of it this way. You can always add a Voltex to a high end suspension setup, but you can't add better damping to the V3; you have to replace it. I'd choose the high end dampers over V3 + wing.

One thing to keep in mind, is that the wing will make the car "easier" to drive, but when the rear snaps out and the airflow over the wing is not relatively straight, you're gonna lose the downforce too. In other words, if you manage to snap, it'll snap harder.

We're dealers for KW, JRZ, Penske, AST, Ohlins, Voltex, and APR, if you want any of the above

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Because I can dream I am currently playing with the idea of some "quality" dampers.
What's the practical difference between JRZ's RS Pro and their 2-way race dampers? Both are 2 way adjustable. Am I correct in saying the Pros are built for the customer who will fit these dampers and then won't consider their maintenance for the next gazillion kilometers where as the race dampers will require servicing every other day? Is running a race damper on the street a waste of "usefulness"? (This is fantasy so "waste of money" doesn't enter the picture.) Are race dampers more fragile in a daily driving sort of sense?

Wake me up!
Thanks.

Noise, durability, service intervals, weight.

Don't run the race dampers on the street; you're not getting your money's worth.

[spookyz]

Hey guys, thanks for doing this thread, some great info in here.

My question is fairly boring but I really need to tap into the knowledge of people who know more than I on the topic (read: pretty much everyone). I just cleared my 1k 'break in' period and ever since I bought the car I've been wanting to drop it about 1"-1.5" for the usual fender gap reasons. That said, this is my daily driver and needs to retain its spot as such and be as reliable as possible but I have a strong adversity to modding and getting less performance than I did prior to whatever it was that was done strictly for aesthetics. I hope that makes sense, but my long question short is, what do you think is the best way to attain a reliable 1"-1.5" drop while maintaining the lively / responsive feel of our suspension? I wouldn't mind if I had to give up a LITTLE ride quality, but I'd rather not if possible. I'm trying to not let money be my limiting factor, but I'd like to keep it around ~$1,500 at the top end if possible.

Thanks for any input, I wish I wasn't such a dolt when it came to this stuff and I've tried to do my research as much as I could, but I'd love to hear your opinions.

(Oh, also, not sure if this matters, but I do plan on going up to 18" rims at some point, but will probably not do anything crazy wide maybe 8-8.5" so I don't think clearance will be a huge problem)

[Captain Snooze]

@CSG Mike
How go the CSG specced SRCs?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

@CSG Mike
How go the CSG specced SRCs?

FI testing soon

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by spookyz

Hey guys, thanks for doing this thread, some great info in here.

My question is fairly boring but I really need to tap into the knowledge of people who know more than I on the topic (read: pretty much everyone). I just cleared my 1k 'break in' period and ever since I bought the car I've been wanting to drop it about 1"-1.5" for the usual fender gap reasons. That said, this is my daily driver and needs to retain its spot as such and be as reliable as possible but I have a strong adversity to modding and getting less performance than I did prior to whatever it was that was done strictly for aesthetics. I hope that makes sense, but my long question short is, what do you think is the best way to attain a reliable 1"-1.5" drop while maintaining the lively / responsive feel of our suspension? I wouldn't mind if I had to give up a LITTLE ride quality, but I'd rather not if possible. I'm trying to not let money be my limiting factor, but I'd like to keep it around ~$1,500 at the top end if possible.

Thanks for any input, I wish I wasn't such a dolt when it came to this stuff and I've tried to do my research as much as I could, but I'd love to hear your opinions.

(Oh, also, not sure if this matters, but I do plan on going up to 18" rims at some point, but will probably not do anything crazy wide maybe 8-8.5" so I don't think clearance will be a huge problem)

A set of properly dialed KW V3, or RCE T2. It's a bit more, but it'll improve ride quality, and give you the stiffer springs you need to not bottom out, while giving you the drop you want.

The V3 is more street oriented, while the T2 is more performance oriented.