Downsizing Wheels and Tires -- I Want Less Grip and More Sidewall!

[Rosso_Corsa]

While we have all been chasing the look of big rims and rubber band sidewalls for close to two decades now, I've increasingly been of the opinion that smaller diameter wheels with bigger sidewalls gives me better handling. This notion was reinforced recently by going to 16" for my winter tires and realizing how fantastic they feel in both snow AND in dry conditions.

I like more rubber because the greater sidewall flex gives MUCH more organic, more driftable, more progressive handling. The car is much more communicative and when it slides, it does so much more gradually. There is also more feedback. When you are using the throttle to steer the car, you feel much more of the chassis's changes with the added sidewall flex. I get to enjoy more of this chassis's great balance MORE of the time without having to go heroically or stupidly fast to do it.

I think the trend towards bigger and bigger rims in the past two decades has gone completely overboard. Designers increasingly cut bigger holes in the body to accommodate bigger and bigger rims for no reason other than fashion. Not only are cars looking more and more cartoonish, but they aren't handling or riding any better. When will this upsizing end? 25"?

If we look toward Formula 1 as the pinnacle of 4 wheel technology where form follows function, you'll see that F1 cars do not have rubber band tires. They have proper meaty sidewalls with lots of rubber.

Anyway, the point of my post is that I want to downsize even my summer tires to 16s. 205/55/16 seems to be the sweet spot for me. The FT86 doesn't have a ton of power to begin with and I am having MOST fun when the chassis is sliding and drifting underneath me anyway and not when I'm gripping as much as possible.

A side bonus: tires are cheaper to replace. Great for track days.

Though it appears that finding a nice set of 16" alloys will end up costing as much as if not more than 17"s.


- Has anyone else gone for the unusual move of downsizing tires and reducing width? Track guys?
- Which wheels did it you do it with?


The RG362 BBS Wheel is my pick right now based on looks, but I don't know if it's a direct fit (it should be).


An OEM 16" does exist in the JDM world, but does not look easy or cheap to get.



The ENKEI Sport Tarmac seems to be a decent looking choice, though not easily available and expensive.

So... comments? Suggestions? What have others done?

[troek]

Amen brother, i just wish the stock 16s i got were wider. If ur looking for a set of stock 16's shoot me a pm.

[dem00n]

I loved the 215/50/15 Toyota had going on here.



I read an interesting article that more sidewall prevents more "two whee" drifts and more "four wheel" drifts. Though it be interesting to see a comparison of a twin running a 50 compared to a 40 or 45.

[diss7]

I have the stock 16's, 2005 celica 16's (which you should be able to get over there) a heaps of 17s, and a set of 18s.

What you're getting at is correct. Lower profile is worse in terms of grip, both in straight line, but especially lateral grip. That's why for drifting I use 205/40/17, that let go laterally very easily. The let go easier that the 215/45/17s I have, which let go easier than the 205/50/16s I have. Which let go easier that the 205/55/16 (16" stock tyres) I have. Note the profiles.

The 205/55/16s don't even like being sideways, they grip up fairly quickly. But they are a bit too wollowy in the corner. Not as direct as I'd like.

Modern, super low profile tyres have to over come this by better design. But the same design in a better profile would be better. For example a 255/40/17 will (IMO) have loads more grip than a 255/35/18. The only reason to run the 18" over the 17" is because you have massive brakes (that are most likely unnecessary) or for looks. And hey I'm not knocking that, I have a set myself. But I also accept that they're probably they're for looks.

If you want further confirmation, just look at any race slick manufacturer. In a 16" they're generally 210/610; which is equivalent of a 205/50 give or take.
A 17 is usually a 230/630-640, and 18s are generally 270/680. 15s are generally 200/580.

Note something? The tyre diameter ALWAYS increases (the first number is width, the second is diameter) Unlike street tyres, the profile is not a proportion of the width.
While a 'tuner' will increase their wheel and decrease their tyre profile.

Most people with modified 86's would not accept that their car with 5-10% more power and 18" wheels, would be slower around a track than a stock car with 16's.

[diss7]

As far as wheel choice in 16's; I have a set of ssr type c's in 16x7; they're only 4.9kg
The celica wheels I mentioned (that are cheap)
Enkei Compe have been re-released in a 16x8 +25, that looks alright.

You can also step down to a 15 if you wanted to. They do clear the brakes, they even clear some BBKs, the wilwood wrx kit, AP racing sprint. At a 15" there's a very small window though. In a 15x7 you need at least a +25 to clear the ball joint at the front (as it won't fit inside a 15" rim) and depending on the wheel/spoke design, you might need a +10 or +5 to clear the BBK you choose. That offset might seem cray cray. But guys are comfortably running a 9.5" +38, which is the same poke as a 7" +7, give or take.

I'm thought about running 15" wheels like that on the track, that's why I've done the research/measurements. I think an 86 on 15" watanabes with 205/580/15 slicks would be awesome. Lower COG, common size for race tyres; it's actually the same size I use with my ae86, so share tyre size between the two would be handy. Sure, it might not please the stance nation crew. But do you like driving the car, or wanking over pictures of it? (Guess which one the stance nation crew do)

[SkAsphalt]

Originally Posted by diss7

Most people with modified 86's would not accept that their car with 5-10% more power and 18" wheels, would be slower around a track than a stock car with 16's.

This is something I constantly think about. I am adding power to my car (mild turbo application) so I thought I should go with wider rims. Then some brembos came along that were a good price so now I need wider, bigger rims. Here I am now with heavier, taller, and wider 18'S with heavier brakes and I am worried that I am just betraying my car...

I almost want to sell the rims and tires before even mounting them and see how well my stock wheels and tires handle the power for now. I know new pads would be all I need for the brakes, it is a street driven car. I could switch to new rotors if I want the looks and that would at least reduce my weight, not increase it like I did.

Problem is though, good new tyres would cost me just as much as my rims and tyres from wheel dude....and getting wider, light weight rims to match would have cost me more than rims, tyres and brembos!

At the same time, I know I could keep this set up for a little while, and then sell them when I have the money to get the light wheels I always wanted (like TC105Ns or RPF1s) ...brakes are still an issue tho. I believe I over committed I feel

[diss7]

After rereading the OP, I see that this is about having more fun. IMO a 205/40/16 will be the most fun, followed by a 205/45/16; but both those tyre sizes are expensive.
A 205/50/16 is much cheaper, but I've found reacts similar to a 205-215/45/17.
A 205/55/16 has more sideways grip, and asi said above is a little spongey. I wouldn't recommend it as a fun tyre.
A 205/40/17 is your best best for a fun tyre. It let's go easily, shortens the gearing a bit, and it's common, so it's cheap.

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by dem00n

I loved the 215/50/15 Toyota had going on here.



I read an interesting article that more sidewall prevents more "two whee" drifts and more "four wheel" drifts. Though it be interesting to see a comparison of a twin running a 50 compared to a 40 or 45.

Really interested in this article, mind digging it out and link it here?

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

[Trac Toy]

Originally Posted by diss7

You can also step down to a 15 if you wanted to. They do clear the brakes, they even clear some BBKs, the wilwood wrx kit, AP racing sprint. At a 15" there's a very small window though. In a 15x7 you need at least a +25 to clear the ball joint at the front (as it won't fit inside a 15" rim) and depending on the wheel/spoke design, you might need a +10 or +5 to clear the BBK you choose. That offset might seem cray cray. But guys are comfortably running a 9.5" +38, which is the same poke as a 7" +7, give or take.

Really? A15" will squeeze over to stock callipers? I was planning on a set of 16" wheels for track duty so that I could run a shorter tire, effectively altering my final drive ratio for track use while still being able to maintain the regular final drive to maintain mileage while not at a track.

But if I can go to a 15 that would be even better. But can we get 15x8 to propery fit a 225/45-15?

[diss7]

Originally Posted by SkAsphalt

This is something I constantly think about. I am adding power to my car (mild turbo application) so I thought I should go with wider rims. Then some brembos came along that were a good price so now I need wider, bigger rims. Here I am now with heavier, taller, and wider 18'S with heavier brakes and I am worried that I am just betraying my car...

I almost want to sell the rims and tires before even mounting them and see how well my stock wheels and tires handle the power for now. I know new pads would be all I need for the brakes, it is a street driven car. I could switch to new rotors if I want the looks and that would at least reduce my weight, not increase it like I did.

Problem is though, good new tyres would cost me just as much as my rims and tyres from wheel dude....and getting wider, light weight rims to match would have cost me more than rims, tyres and brembos!

At the same time, I know I could keep this set up for a little while, and then sell them when I have the money to get the light wheels I always wanted (like TC105Ns or RPF1s) ...brakes are still an issue tho. I believe I over committed I feel

I know how you feel. I did a similar thing. Got supercharger, then bbk, then big wheels. I'm just know undoing it all. I like driving my car NA with small wheels better than i did with FI and big wheels.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by Trac Toy

Really? A15" will squeeze over to stock callipers? I was planning on a set of 16" wheels for track duty so that I could run a shorter tire, effectively altering my final drive ratio for track use while still being able to maintain the regular final drive to maintain mileage while not at a track.

But if I can go to a 15 that would be even better. But can we get 15x8 to propery fit a 225/45-15?

You need to do your own measurements TBH as it's tight. I have two 15" wheels, one fits, one doesn't. They have different clearance on the inside of the barrel.

Here's some pics I took confirming that the ap racing sprint kit fits a 15x7 0 that I had in my garage. The endurance kit also JUST fit, but only left 1mm clearance, where as recommended is 2.5mm







If you're thinking about getting a 15" track set, get out of this mind set that wider is better. Wider is better, once you don't have better compounds. For a track set, go a 195/50 or 205/50 semi slick, both will have loads more grip than a typical 235 road tyre. When you want more grip than the semis, get some second hand full slicks. 15s are very common so you'll get a set very very cheap.

[Trac Toy]

Ok this may work out well. We are moving from a 15x7 to a 15x8 for the chumpcar. So the old track lites will be doing nothing. 15x7 and 5x100. Just hope the offset is right. Thanks for the suggestion, can't hurt to check!

[dem00n]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

Really interested in this article, mind digging it out and link it here?

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

Here you go.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/01/...he-80s-trd-86/

[dem00n]

Originally Posted by diss7

You need to do your own measurements TBH as it's tight. I have two 15" wheels, one fits, one doesn't. They have different clearance on the inside of the barrel.

Here's some pics I took confirming that the ap racing sprint kit fits a 15x7 0 that I had in my garage. The endurance kit also JUST fit, but only left 1mm clearance, where as recommended is 2.5mm

If you're thinking about getting a 15" track set, get out of this mind set that wider is better. Wider is better, once you don't have better compounds. For a track set, go a 195/50 or 205/50 semi slick, both will have loads more grip than a typical 235 road tyre. When you want more grip than the semis, get some second hand full slicks. 15s are very common so you'll get a set very very cheap.

195 fit safely on a 15x7? I know some in the Honda crowd who run away from this on the track.