BRZ vs E46 M3

[ZDan]

Holy crap, thanks for that post, Juggernaut! I had pretty much been convinced that NO one in these forums would even acknowledge that I might just have a point!

Here's to the success of the FR-S/BRZ, and to it lighting a fire under the arses of BMW, Nissan, Porsche, etc.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Holy crap, thanks for that post, Juggernaut! I had pretty much been convinced that NO one in these forums would even acknowledge that I might just have a point!

Here's to the success of the FR-S/BRZ, and to it lighting a fire under the arses of BMW, Nissan, Porsche, etc.

I don't think anybody was against what you stood for in a sports car. I think it was just a difference in priorities of a sports car was what made it seem like everybody was against you. We all like the idea of lightweight sports cars or we wouldn't be on this site.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I don't think anybody was against what you stood for in a sports car. I think it was just a difference in priorities of a sports car was what made it seem like everybody was against you. We all like the idea of lightweight sports cars or we wouldn't be on this site.

is that why you firmly believe that a GC is an alternative to a FRS?

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

is that why you firmly believe that a GC is an alternative to a FRS?

I never said it was. I even called the comparison retarded in that same thread. They are in two different size and weight categories but it doesn't mean that I only favor lightweight only. If you look in that thread I compared the FRS=S2K and compared the GC=350Z. Two different tools to the trade.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

is that why you firmly believe that a GC is an alternative to a FRS?

I do; from a pricing standpoint. So is the v6 stang, WRX, Focus ST, and a few others. Likely the reason MOST of these comparison threads exist isn't because the cars are similar from a performance standpoint. It's because given that nearly everyone on this forum obviously has a soft spot for lightweight sports coupes, they want to see whether the differences between these vehicles are substantial enough to effect their decision to purchase AND whether or not those differences can be culled via the aftermarket. Taking a fast car that handles decently and making it handle well (regardless of weight) is typically easier and less costly than taking a decent car that handles well and making it fast (N/A).

Also Zdan I never said you DIDN'T have a point, I just said you're overly critical when it comes to weight. It's to the point where you seem to make a HUGE deal out of anything that weighs in excess of 3000lbs, without considering the practicality that comes with a larger vehicle. Like comfortable seating for 4-5 people. In addition to this if you've got a dedicated track vehicle then chances are you'll lighten it substantially ANYWAY; so that vehicle that started at lets say 3300lbs might end up being under 3k once you get rid of the glass, non-aluminum panels, spare (if you have one), grab lighter rims, passenger and rear seats and every other component that exists solely for creature comfort.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

Also Zdan I never said you DIDN'T have a point, I just said you're overly critical when it comes to weight. It's to the point where you seem to make a HUGE deal out of anything that weighs in excess of 3000lbs, without considering the practicality that comes with a larger vehicle. Like comfortable seating for 4-5 people.

Like all the other BMW-apologist arguments, this one makes 3200, 3600, 4000+ lb vehicles from an "enthusiast" manufacturer seem not only inevitable but *laudable*.

A minivan is a much more practical 4-5 passenger vehicle than anything BMW makes. Not a great argument for BMW to abandon the 1- and 3-series to make minivans, IMO...

In addition to this if you've got a dedicated track vehicle then chances are you'll lighten it substantially ANYWAY; so that vehicle that started at lets say 3300lbs might end up being under 3k once you get rid of the glass, non-aluminum panels, spare (if you have one), grab lighter rims, passenger and rear seats and every other component that exists solely for creature comfort.

This argument is LUDICROUS. As if once you start lightening a platform its original weight was irrelevant? If you want a lightweight track car, starting with an overweight pig is idiotic.

Utter B.S. Same effort in lightweighting to get an E46 below 3000 lb would have an E30 below 2400 lb.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Like all the other BMW-apologist arguments, this one makes 3200, 3600, 4000+ lb vehicles from an "enthusiast" manufacturer seem not only inevitable but *laudable*.

A minivan is a much more practical 4-5 passenger vehicle than anything BMW makes. Not a great argument for BMW to abandon the 1- and 3-series to make minivans, IMO...

This argument is LUDICROUS. As if once you start lightening a platform its original weight was irrelevant? If you want a lightweight track car, starting with an overweight pig is idiotic.

Utter B.S. Same effort in lightweighting to get an E46 below 3000 lb would have an E30 below 2400 lb.

I can't deal with you anymore. You're a judgemental extremist that refuses to see the "compromise" in anything outside your own ideals. You pretend as though there isn't anything practical out there past 3000lb's now THAT's "LUDICROUS". What about lightening an average weight car is Ludicrous? A car doesn't NEED to be 2400lbs to perform superbly, and frankly many people ENJOY high horsepower mid-weight vehicles. And truthfully I don't consider something a "pig" or overweight until it reaches higher than 3800lbs, and I honestly could give less of a f*** whether or not YOU agree with that statement. Adding you to the ignore list now, your mentality and narrowminded view of the automotive world angers me.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

I can't deal with you anymore. You're a judgemental extremist that refuses to see the "compromise" in anything outside your own ideals.

I'm all about compromise. *Everything* is a compromise and I recognise that.

You pretend as though there isn't anything practical out there past 3000lb's now THAT's "LUDICROUS".

Not sure what you're saying here, so no comment.

What about lightening an average weight car is Ludicrous?

For a given price point, if you want a fast dedicated track car, it's LUDICROUS to start with a heavy car. You will need more power, more brakes, more structural stiffness, etc. to achieve the same speed vs. a lighter-weight car. AND you'll spend a LOT more money to run it.

A car doesn't NEED to be 2400lbs to perform superbly

No, but as weight goes up, cost to achieve a speedy lap time also goes up, *and* you lose the immediacy of a smaller/lighterweight car.

and frankly many people ENJOY high horsepower mid-weight vehicles.

Count me in, I certainly do!

And truthfully I don't consider something a "pig" or overweight until it reaches higher than 3800lbs,

Depends on the application, of course. For me, that number would be closer to 3200 for a real-world daily driven sports car.

and I honestly could give less of a f*** whether or not YOU agree with that statement. Adding you to the ignore list now, your mentality and narrowminded view of the automotive world angers me.

GOOD RIDDANCE!

[WingsofWar]

i completely disagree with everything TheJuggernaut said.....j/k...it was great post.

The same ideas can be applied to a variety of cars and not just those BMWs, and still be true.

Enthusiasts, admirer, tuner, can all mean the same thing..and at the same time mean completely different things.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Holy crap, thanks for that post, Juggernaut! I had pretty much been convinced that NO one in these forums would even acknowledge that I might just have a point!

Here's to the success of the FR-S/BRZ, and to it lighting a fire under the arses of BMW, Nissan, Porsche, etc.

ZDan, your posts are better worded then what I can come up with. I've expressed my opinions about vehicular mass about 6 months ago on a GC thread, and of course, got the same response. So I will let them believe what they want to believe... because no side is without a point or two. This continues on to the transmissions, engines. I'm sure I've had a friendly battle with someone on just about everything that I prefer.

[miata]

I always go with the newer technology when in doubt.
Therefore, FRS> e46 M3. To me, e46 M3 > e36 M3.

[zoomzoomers]

I prefer drumsticks than wings n tighs...

[miata]

I like breasts better.

[zoomzoomers]

Originally Posted by miata

I like breasts better.

Well I like breastasisses better!