What Class do you think the Twins would go to for SP???

[Eric1855]

I'm out of building a SP car if it is going to CSP. I just don't see it getting light enough in the ruleset to catch up with the tiny miata.

I also see they didn't write the rule with both on the same line, seems odd and not in line with historical examples of same "models" from different manufacturers.

Ah well, saves me some money next year. Until I end up in SM like always.

[Sccabrz192]

Guess I'll be looking at options other than a BRZ after I've become bored in street.

Who in their right mind will dump SP money into building what really amounts to a not streetable car just for the purpose of trying to get it reclassed. CSP miatas are typically faster on most courses than the boost buggies in ASP... and that includes people like Aaron Miller, Marshall Grice, and Tom Barry. No bleeping chance for the FR-S/BRZ.

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by SubiePig

Difference in the fastest STX overall time and CSP overall time at nationals was 9.9 so roughly 5 seconds a day. I realize that even Andrew's car, who placed second and was the first 86 was far from maxed out. Seeing pictures of the car he had the stock battery, seats, and many other things not modified. I stopped putting money into the CSP car in 09 when everyone went to 275/15's, building VVT engines, etc. cause I couldn't justify the cost.

Assuming you take an STX car that has been maxed out to the rules how much time are you looking at with:
275/285 slicks with flairs
Removal of all the emissions equipment
Aftermarket flywheel
Front wing and rear lip spoiler
Radio and all the speakers
AC system
Non-airbag steering wheel

(for the really serious)
Intake manifold
Overbore
Mill heads

These all being the changes that would be able to be done beyond STX trim within SP guidelines that I can think. Besides the last but not least OIL COOLER that I wish they would just amend already so I don't have to make a sandwich plate with dry quick connect fittings that are $200 so I can install for NASA Time Trials and remove for Pro and Tour events

Assuming it gets dropped from STX, you'll get E85. Or leaded race gas is an option... but that will only help so much.

[jprice130]

Not that I had high hopes of building a Street Prepared car, but this recommendation doesn't make much sense to me. If the RX-8 is in CS and STX, why is it classed in DSP while the BRZ/FR-S is CSP? What do the twins have in Street Prepared trim that the RX-8 doesn't have?

[Scooby South]

Originally Posted by jprice130

Not that I had high hopes of building a Street Prepared car, but this recommendation doesn't make much sense to me. If the RX-8 is in CS and STX, why is it classed in DSP while the BRZ/FR-S is CSP? What do the twins have in Street Prepared trim that the RX-8 doesn't have?

I agree.. if its STX ..it should follow the rest of the STX class.. which is DSP.. However; I will put this out there.. The initial letter is the one the SPAC went off of.. which submitted a good 5-7 months prior to the other letters being submitted. to me it looks like someone "planned" it to be in CSP ...maybe to help the numbers??? There were a total of 5 letters that were submitted to class the twins in SP.. with the one being submitted WAY earlier, and thats the one the SPAC voted on, from my understanding... So it flounders in CSP for a year. I still don't think it can produce the power or get to the weight that some of the Bigboys think it can. they are projecting 2200lbs and 225whp in SP trim.. Don't see it.. Am I missing something???

Bill

[PoorMansRacing]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

they are projecting 2200lbs and 225whp in SP trim..

well, I'm screwed lol

[G_Ride]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

I agree.. if its STX ..it should follow the rest of the STX class.. which is DSP.. However; I will put this out there.. The initial letter is the one the SPAC went off of.. which submitted a good 5-7 months prior to the other letters being submitted. to me it looks like someone "planned" it to be in CSP ...maybe to help the numbers??? There were a total of 5 letters that were submitted to class the twins in SP.. with the one being submitted WAY earlier, and thats the one the SPAC voted on, from my understanding... So it flounders in CSP for a year. I still don't think it can produce the power or get to the weight that some of the Bigboys think it can. they are projecting 2200lbs and 225whp in SP trim.. Don't see it.. Am I missing something???

Bill

Agreed, I don't see it either. I'm not seeing how you could get to that weight in SP with these cars. 225whp may be possible. You made 192whp on 93 right? Who knows what E85 and C16 can do?

[xwd]

I think the CSP classing is really just to make sure it doesn't go into DSP and scare people away or be an overdog in the class. However it will keep anyone from actually building a CSP 86, at least for a few years. They did the same thing to the RX-8, it was in CSP for years no one ever competed in one so they recently moved it to DSP.

I don't see it being competitive against the CSP Miatas at all. IMHO it's going to be hard to get the cars under 2500lbs in CSP trim, it's not like there is a ton of weight to shed in addition to what you can already do in STX. All the stuff SubiePig mentioned is probably good for 50lbs, you could run some superlight seats and maybe get to 75lbs less than STX, and that puts you around 2500lbs.

Power wise if you were willing to do a fully built CSP motor maybe you end up at 210whp on E85 or race gas. 220whp I don't think is going to happen unless you are willing to wind the motor beyond what is safe.

It's still not going to compete with a tiny Miata weighing 1900-2000lbs and making 150-170whp... Slaloms and offsets are a huge part of autox and you can't ignore the length and width differences and the ability to carry speed.

[Scooby South]

Originally Posted by G_Ride

Agreed, I don't see it either. I'm not seeing how you could get to that weight in SP with these cars. 225whp may be possible. You made 192whp on 93 right? Who knows what E85 and C16 can do?

yep.. But even with the Fuel allowance and the Fuel system upgrade in SP I don't know if you could get that number..

Originally Posted by dwx

I think the CSP classing is really just to make sure it doesn't go into DSP and scare people away or be an overdog in the class. However it will keep anyone from actually building a CSP 86, at least for a few years. They did the same thing to the RX-8, it was in CSP for years no one ever competed in one so they recently moved it to DSP.

I don't see it being competitive against the CSP Miatas at all. IMHO it's going to be hard to get the cars under 2500lbs in CSP trim, it's not like there is a ton of weight to shed in addition to what you can already do in STX. All the stuff SubiePig mentioned is probably good for 50lbs, you could run some superlight seats and maybe get to 75lbs less than STX, and that puts you around 2500lbs.

Power wise if you were willing to do a fully built CSP motor maybe you end up at 210whp on E85 or race gas. 220whp I don't think is going to happen unless you are willing to wind the motor beyond what is safe.

It's still not going to compete with a tiny Miata weighing 1900-2000lbs and making 150-170whp... Slaloms and offsets are a huge part of autox and you can't ignore the length and width differences and the ability to carry speed.

Agreed... I pretty much made the same comments to Bill and the others.. and got this as a response:

Bill Schenker: As to why we (the S.P.A.C.) put the Twins - for now - into CSP is that there already has been changes made to DSP to strengthen that class - we want to make sure it continues to be healthy (in a somewhat unhealthy category) before potentially upsetting the class. BTW: the proceeding is MY opinion, not an official statement of the S.P.A.C. or the S.E.B..

[mrazny]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

However; I will put this out there.. The initial letter is the one the SPAC went off of.. which submitted a good 5-7 months prior to the other letters being submitted. to me it looks like someone "planned" it to be in CSP ...maybe to help the numbers??? There were a total of 5 letters that were submitted to class the twins in SP.. with the one being submitted WAY earlier, and thats the one the SPAC voted on, from my understanding...

Bill

letters start the conversation only. There's nothing to say that the first letter was automatically given the most prominence. There are plenty of cases where the earliest letter is the one that is used as the "label" for a decision. That doesn't mean other letters are ignored, or that even the original earliest letter contained proposals that ended up being the core of what's being published here.

[Scooby South]

Originally Posted by mrazny

letters start the conversation only. There's nothing to say that the first letter was automatically given the most prominence. There are plenty of cases where the earliest letter is the one that is used as the "label" for a decision. That doesn't mean other letters are ignored, or that even the original earliest letter contained proposals that ended up being the core of what's being published here.

Hi Mike.. .. I will go so far as to say, "The person that submitted it would likely be influential." from what I have heard..

Bill

[mrazny]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

Hi Mike.. .. I will go so far as to say, "The person that submitted it would likely be influential." from what I have heard..

Bill

I'd just counter that this is a conversation starter. This is the first proposal for the SP classing, so it's would be very logical that you'd start the response from the first letter about the SP classing.

I just don't think there's too much to imply from the precise letter that is referenced when the Fasttrack puts things to comment.

More than this specific SP situation, I don't think it should be a reference point to some other proposal as to precisely which letter starts the fasttrack. In this case, sure, that first letter could very well be the most influential. It's just as likely coincidental than causal if you compare other proposals.


By the way I wouldn't say that I agree that Twins are competitive in CSP. But I completely understand the angle where they believe this to be in the best interests of the SP category.

Sux, but there's always STX to play with us freaks

[Eric1855]

Originally Posted by mrazny

... But I completely understand the angle where they believe this to be in the best interests of the SP category.

AKA protect the grumpy old guys

[Scooby South]

Originally Posted by mrazny

I'd just counter that this is a conversation starter. This is the first proposal for the SP classing, so it's would be very logical that you'd start the response from the first letter about the SP classing.

I just don't think there's too much to imply from the precise letter that is referenced when the Fasttrack puts things to comment.

More than this specific SP situation, I don't think it should be a reference point to some other proposal as to precisely which letter starts the fasttrack. In this case, sure, that first letter could very well be the most influential. It's just as likely coincidental than causal if you compare other proposals.


By the way I wouldn't say that I agree that Twins are competitive in CSP. But I completely understand the angle where they believe this to be in the best interests of the SP category.

Sux, but there's always STX to play with us freaks

ohhhh I agree.. I will play in STX for while and have NO plans to run SP any time soon.

Originally Posted by Eric1855

AKA protect the grumpy old guys

Pretty much. Its still a business at certain levels.. so if one class is hurting for entries.. they will try to 'beef up' that class with a car 'close' to the specs.. At that level..there are ALOT of old-timers get their panties in a wad because alot of them can't handle change.

Bill