ICE, ICE, ICE

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc;1380806
I will repeat my two favorite tests:
[URL="http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/274042/evo_2011_winter_tyre_test_the_intro.html"

Evo's[/URL]
Read the whole thing before you dismiss it. This is Evo, they don't do stupid tests of dry cold handling in warm weather.
Money quote:
..

Apparently the usually excellent Evo forgot to publish the ambient test temperature. So did Edmunds.

Summer tires get worse and worse below 7C until they actually just disintegrate from the cold.

ALL the tire manufacturers and the rubber association agree that the crossover temperature is 7C. But what do they know, they just build the tires.

Your mileage may vary but I'm sure glad you don't drive anywhere near me.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Suberman

some pompous crap

All I ask is a single independent test (say within the past 5-10 years) of the supposedly-universally accepted truth. Should be easy to find, right?

So far you're just repeating marketing slogans. A. Single. Test. Please.

Originally Posted by Suberman

Apparently the usually excellent Evo forgot to publish the ambient test temperature. So did Edmunds.

How about you e-mail them and ask.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Suberman

As it gets colder the summer tires get worse and worse until they eventually just disintegrate.

I (admittedly, in a possible lapse of judgment, but I was tired of driving the Outback...) drove to work today in my Cayman on Pilot Super Sports. The temperature this morning? About 20F (~-7C). The grip wasn't as good as in the warm, of course, but the tires don't disintegrate. If anything, the problem is the opposite - the rubber is rock hard at those temps. You do have to compensate for the lower grip (and they're completely useless on ice), but you can definitely get by running high performance summers at sub-freezing temps, as long as the road is dry.

[dsgerbc]

If anyone is genuinely interested - they can do a simple exercise (if it's cold outside, like today in Michigan and many other states), to decide whether the 7C/48F figure is relevant to anything. Go drive for a while (on asphalt), after that measure the temperature of the tread. Or just touch it. It should be quite warm. Much warmer than ambient temperature, and over 10-15C/50-55F in most cases during regular winter months. Which makes scary crap about tires turning to rock and blowing up only semi-relevant in the first couple of miles of driving.

[dsgerbc]

Ok, while I'm at it I'll link another test, which includes OEM Michelins, lol.
Complete test starts here.

Dry asphalt testing, at 5.5C
For some reasons pics aren't working, so here's the money pic from another site(article in russian about the what car? piece).
Braking distance 62mph to 0 in the dry at 5.5C ambient temp. Red=summer tire, Blue=Performance Winter, aka Euro-winter.


And don't forget, that the point here is that winter tires in the dry suck donkey butt and one needs to drive on them accordingly.

And just for the kicks: ice braking distance from a measly 12mph:

Notice OEM Michelins

[USMC]

What Ice ???? I live south Florida. It's in the 80s.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

I think those might be discontinued by now, the new Pilot Sport A/S 3 are good though.
One thing they didn't test - ice. And those will be dreadful on ice, so watch out for those days.

Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed last winter on Xi3. Both in snow and in the dry, but I'm not a grip junkie and enjoy it more when my car is loose. Low dry grip was fun despite the soft sidewall, I just had to remember to stay further back from other cars on the hwy.

On the contrary. Ice performance is mainly about compounding and secondarily siping. Michelin claims their A/S3 is superior to their A/SPlus and good to minus 10C. I have driven on the A/S Plus on ice and they grip extremely well, comparable to a high performance snow tire at around zero.

You really must get out more.

[BRZfan]

FYI:
Taken from another thread. Compliments of DESLOCK. Drive Smart, Drive Safe:

"Lastly, for all you AT owners, from page 173 of the owners manual: "Use snow mode for accelerating and driving on slippery road surfaces such as snow."

,http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1386759431

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Suberman

On the contrary. Ice performance is mainly about compounding and secondarily siping. Michelin claims their A/S3 is superior to their A/SPlus and good to minus 10C. I have driven on the A/S Plus on ice and they grip extremely well, comparable to a high performance snow tire at around zero.

You really must get out more.

You must find a test to back up your claims or STFU.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Suberman

On the contrary. Ice performance is mainly about compounding and secondarily siping. Michelin claims their A/S3 is superior to their A/SPlus and good to minus 10C. I have driven on the A/S Plus on ice and they grip extremely well, comparable to a high performance snow tire at around zero.

You really must get out more.

I would believe that the A/S Plus or A/S 3 grip well enough on snow/ice to not die or slide off the road in most cases (as long as you drive carefully), but I very much doubt that they're anywhere close to the performance of a high performance snow tire on snow or ice (Michelin PA4s, for example).

[DoomsdayJesus]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

You must find a test to back up your claims or STFU.

Have you read the reviews on the AS/3? It's really damn good.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayJesus

Have you read the reviews on the AS/3? It's really damn good.

It is, but I doubt it would come close to a true snow tire for ice/snow performance. It's stunningly good on the dry and wet though.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayJesus

Have you read the reviews on the AS/3? It's really damn good.

In terms of compromises made, Performance Winter tire and good A/S tire somewhat geared toward winter would be fairly close, so it's nothing really surprising.
A/S 3 is a good tire, don't get me wrong, but if you test it against other Michelin products of the same generation, it would have less dry grip than the PSS, more dry grip than, say PA3/PA4 perf.winters and waaaaay more dry grip than Xi3. On ice it would still be somewhat behind PA3/PA4 and waaaaaay behind Xi3.
Comparing across producers and tire grades - will complicate matters. I can believe that A/S 3 would have more dry grip than OEM Michelin Primacy and some other regular 'summer touring' tires, although that would be a nice thing to test.

That's quite beside the point though, since those A/S 3 won't get you through ice safely in a BRZ/FR-S. I'm fairly certain they are *worse* than the Michelin A4 on ice (referenced on the graph above), which itself only produces .1g in ice braking and probaly even less sideways. It's not gonna be enough to make it up the slope over 5%, and you're gonna have to crawl everywhere praying your TC/VSC can keep you out of the ditch.

[SirBrass]

Most decent tires have more dry grip, wet grip... everything against the stock HP Primacy blocks of hard rubber.