ICE, ICE, ICE

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by FRSfan111

I can't wait for snow. Living in the northwest I've driven in it all my life. I've isnt hard to drive on either just throttle and counter steer. The real problem is other drivers. Hitting the brakes is the dumbest thing u can do IMO. Downshift and let that slow you down only brake gently.

Oh yes, definitely downshift to slow a rwd car in the slippery stuff, highly recommended. As long as you know a good body shop with cheap rates.

Use the f'ing brakes. The engineers spent a pile of money inventing ABS just so drivers like you can slow down to a safe speed. Try 10 mph.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Apparently there us no limit to the depth OR breadth of your ignorance.

Find a test that shows otherwise and we can talk.
The notion that winter tires somehow have more grip in the dry is:
a) False
b) dangerous. If people think there will be more dry grip, they can try to drive expecting it, and crash/get injured.

There is no free lunch in tires. To get more grip in ice/snow one MUST give up grip in other conditions. That's true for Canada too, lol.

[Brzetto]

[BRZfan]

You are using a procedure used by the "old school". As SUBERMAN said, you have got to understand the use of ABS, what it is there for and how to use it. If you do try shifting down to decelerate on ice do it carefully, as in "Slow & Easy" - like crossing a fast river in above knee-high depth without a safety rope.

Originally Posted by FRSfan111

I can't wait for snow. Living in the northwest I've driven in it all my life. I've isnt hard to drive on either just throttle and counter steer. The real problem is other drivers. Hitting the brakes is the dumbest thing u can do IMO. Downshift and let that slow you down only brake gently.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Find a test that shows otherwise and we can talk.
The notion that winter tires somehow have more grip in the dry is:
a) False
b) dangerous. If people think there will be more dry grip, they can try to drive expecting it, and crash/get injured.

There is no free lunch in tires. To get more grip in ice/snow one MUST give up grip in other conditions. That's true for Canada too, lol.

Will edmunds do?

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/f...vs-summer.html

Or check out continentals web site, or Michelin or Pirelli or Bridgestone.

You are overlooking temperature effects.

You are correct that there is no free lunch in tires. You are incorrect to assume that winter tires grip less well than summer tires in all conditions. Testing proves that the crossover point is 7C for most high performance summer tires.

What is particularly distressing is that all season tires are basically inferior in all conditions to either summer or winter tires. No season tires is more accurate.

However, Michelin appears to have again defied this no free lunch idea with the release of the Pilot A/S 3 ultra high performance all season tire which can apparently do everything. Even walk your dog.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Will edmunds do?

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/f...vs-summer.html

Did you even bother reading "dry results" section of your test? I'll quote that for you:

Home sweet home. We're back at our usual test ground at Auto Club Speedway in Fontana, California, for some good old dry asphalt. This is the surface we're all familiar with, so we figure we can predict the finishing order with ease: summer, all-season, then snow.

And so it is. The summer tires (actually you could also think of them as three-season tires) top the charts in acceleration (8.7 seconds), stopping distance (120 feet) and lateral acceleration (0.86g). OK, this acceleration figure isn't the best we've ever achieved with a Civic Si, but for the sake of consistency we're still using traction control for these launches.

Our all-season tire ties for top honors in the 0-60 test with another 8.7-second run, but its stopping distance and lateral grip figures sag in comparison to the summer tire, with marks of 131 feet and 0.84g, respectively. Not bad, but still second-best.

Pity the poor snow tires, as they are well and truly out of their element here. They manage a competitive 8.9-second acceleration pass to 60 mph, but the 155-foot braking runs and 0.81g lateral acceleration laps take a visible toll on the tread, which might not make it to the car's next oil change if we keep this up. And the noise they make when cruising straight and level reminds us of a lifted off-road pickup.

That said, I have no idea what temps they ran that test at, so it's not even a decent test. There are temperature effects, but "glass transition" temperature for 99% of street tires (maybe with the exception of Extreme Performance Summers, geared toward track temperature) are waaaaaaaaay below freezing.

So I repeat, find me a test that shows that snow tires are better in the dry and we'll talk.

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Did you even bother reading "dry results" section of your test? I'll quote that for you:


That said, I have no idea what temps they ran that test at, so it's not even a decent test. There are temperature effects, but "glass transition" temperature for 99% of street tires (maybe with the exception of Extreme Performance Summers, geared toward track temperature) are waaaaaaaaay below freezing.

So I repeat, find me a test that shows that snow tires are better in the dry and we'll talk.

So many people only look at the winter tire snow grip. If you can avoid driving in actual snow and ice, an all season tire is way better than a snow tire in terms of bang for buck.

If you HAVE to drive in snow and/or ice you NEED a winter tire.

It is sad so many internet forum circle jerkers will blindly say you need a snow tire for winter. The fact is, you only need a snow tire if you have no choice but to drive in snow and/or ice.

I have all season on my car for the winter since I can drive another car with snows in snow/ice. Guess what , I have no problems in cold dry temps and am happily hitting 7k RPM in 1-4th gear no problem. Good luck having fun on snow tires when you are driving 95% of the time in dry conditions without snow or ice.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Good luck having fun on snow tires when you are driving 95% of the time in dry conditions without snow or ice.

And that's why the companies invented performance winter tires (like my Hankook i*cepts). Enough to get you by when the snow is on the ground, and still be decently fun (still not as good as the summers) when its not.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

So many people only look at the winter tire snow grip. If you can avoid driving in actual snow and ice, an all season tire is way better than a snow tire in terms of bang for buck.

If you can avoid driving on snow/ice, one doesn't even need A/S tires. Decent "summer" tires, aka three-season tires, will be better than A/S (Not OEM Michelins, which are pretty bad in the wet at any temperature).

That said, I can't seriously recommend that to anyone in the climate where snow/ice is possible, since not everybody will be checking the forecasts for the day every day, those forecasts still aren't accurate enough, and one can run into some ice from condensation no matter what the forecast says.

A/S tire on a BRZ/FR-S will probably get you home safely when there's been some light snow during the day, which might be a perfect compromise to some.

The reason I bring up dry grip is exactly becasue of the post in this topic I originally quoted. There's a dangerous misconception out there that under some fairly high threshold (like ~8C/~48F) snow tires are better in the dry. It's a flat-out lie, but some people believe it, swap winter tires, and try to drive like they are on summers. God help them figure out that the dry grip isn't there before they wreck.

[ZionsWrath]

If there is any percentage chance forecast of snow/ice or rain at near freezing temps I don't drive my BRZ with all seasons. If you have a car for bad weather you will check the forecast every time you have to drive. It only takes 1 minute. Not sure why you would say people that have an alternate car wouldn't do that.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

The reason I bring up dry grip is exactly becasue of the post in this topic I originally quoted. There's a dangerous misconception out there that under some fairly high threshold (like ~8C/~48F) snow tires are better in the dry. It's a flat-out lie, but some people believe it, swap winter tires, and try to drive like they are on summers. God help them figure out that the dry grip isn't there before they wreck.

This man speaks the truth, or troof if you prefer.

Highway on-ramps - in the dry, on snow tires, around the temperature you should be switching compounds - that's just something you all need to experience for yourself.




I think I'm going to suggest a Winter Driving sub-forum.

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

This man speaks the truth, or troof if you prefer.

Highway on-ramps - in the dry, on snow tires, around the temperature you should be switching compounds - that's just something you all need to experience for yourself.




I think I'm going to suggest a Winter Driving sub-forum.

I think there is a very interesting dichotomy between the words "winter tire" and "snow tire". There seems to be a usage as if they mean the same thing.

Drivers need to realize a snow tire is going to have exceptional snow traction IN SNOW compared to other tires. BUT it is not going to have the best traction in NON-SNOW conditions.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

If there is any percentage chance forecast of snow/ice or rain at near freezing temps I don't drive my BRZ with all seasons. If you have a car for bad weather you will check the forecast every time you have to drive. It only takes 1 minute. Not sure why you would say people that have an alternate car wouldn't do that.

I do that too, and I suppose there's already an app somewhere that would alert one if there's some junk in the forecast, but I don't expect others to check it every day, heck I don't even expect myself to do that everyday. Some mornings are busy enough as is. W/o knowing people personally, I'm uncomfortable recommending A/S tires for a BRZ/FR-S in a climate where snow/ice happens. I can lay out the circumstances and let people assess the probabilities themselves. If I know the person and can reasonably expect them to check the forecast daily, then I can recommend summer/all-seasons for a BRZ/FR-S.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

I think there is a very interesting dichotomy between the words "winter tire" and "snow tire". There seems to be a usage as if they mean the same thing.

Drivers need to realize a snow tire is going to have exceptional snow traction IN SNOW compared to other tires. BUT it is not going to have the best traction in NON-SNOW conditions.

Well, I personally have Performance Winters...I can't imagine what actual "snow" tires feel like in above freezing dry weather.