SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[7thgear]

the problem with SCCA classing is that everyone thinks they deserve to be #1

some bloke comes in 2nd every year and claims unfairness

guess what? you're just not good enough for #1

etc.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

the problem with SCCA classing is that everyone thinks they deserve to be #1

some bloke comes in 2nd every year and claims unfairness

guess what? you're just not good enough for #1

etc.

Are you serious? Try taking a deeper look at some of the classes and some recent history.

Competing in RTR this last year against the fully prepped a ZOK Solstice and MSR MX-5 not really competitive for us Twin drivers. While I'm far from being a top driver, even some top drivers gave up on the Twins last year because of classing. They gave up not because they "just want to be #1", but because they wanted a FAIR CHANCE to be #1. Those two cars (when paired with good drivers) were just always faster on any and every course than the Twins.

Try competing in that type of environment and see how it feels.

The point of class racing is reduce the factor of the car and allow it to be all about the driver (as much as possible). Stock/Street classes even more so!!

If the playing field is not leveled as much as it can be, driver competition suffers as it becomes too much about getting the "right car". If the competition is unbalanced, then class participation numbers typically fall.

Even losing, I still have fun. My comments aren't about the lack of fun.
I want my class to be balanced and competitive. I rather loose a race directly because of my driving and my choice of modifications, rather than directly due to choice of car.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Personally, I think other cars in our own class will gain much more vs the twins with the current allowance rule and become much faster as a result.

I guess we'll find out this year how the SAC's wise decisions with regards to classing turn out. I think that we will have an uphill battle with the 370Z and only have a slight advantage on tight and heavy transition courses. It will be rough at many regions around the nation, including mine.

This is the first time I have heard someone say this. I am not sure I agree with your conclusion but would be interested to hear what you are basing it on. Typically going from race tires to street tires will give the advantage to lighter, less powerful cars.

[mrazny]

I hope the current version has some serious parity, but I'd also doubt that every twin has reached it's apex of tuning in Street form.

I can't claim to know anything about Michael Heinitz, and Lincoln is its own unique beast, but, that showing had plenty of parity. I also don't have any insider info on if Trev or Heinitz swapped out from BFG's and don't remember if i heard anything about their final tire choice.

Trev can drive, he lost, but he didn't get pantsed.

Plenty of tours where RTRC twins held their own.

Which results give you the most pause that the Twins are mega-outclassed by MS-R's and ZOK's specifically? obviously this is all speculative since the twins are only against the rx-8 and 370z at this point. (and to a much lesser extent the m3)

[simpleisbest]

With OEM 19" the gearing in the 370z is a bit tall. With the available tire sizes and what-not, they should be able to shorten up gearing/increase acceleration, while still have enough top end for most courses. Rivals also have some pretty large sizes in the 18" size vs the Dunlop. They can fit pretty meaty tires on that car and the wheels are wide (9J Front, 10J Rear), so they will be able to better stretch/square big size tires which typically means more grip.

With that be enough to overcome the weight difference? If we had a normal rev limiter, I would say it would be close, but with our fuel cut...its not as easy to man-handle the car at the top of 2nd gear. This is a disadvantage, IMO. We can up tire size to get more gearing, but at the cost of other factors such as turn-in, overall precision, acceleration. The reduction of these 3 alone can be tough for a momentum car like ours.

One of our local hotshoes is building a 370z, so I'll get to see first hand next year.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by mrazny

Which results give you the most pause that the Twins are mega-outclassed by MS-R's and ZOK's specifically? obviously this is all speculative since the twins are only against the rx-8 and 370z at this point. (and to a much lesser extent the m3)

This past year's SD Tour and El Toro Pro. Think the Solstice was on Z2s and the MSR on Rivals. It was at that Pro that Jeff Cawthorne (on Rivals) decided to give up on the Twin, if my memory serves me right. The car was well prepped and well driven, but it the speed wasn't there to keep up with the class leading MSR and ZOK.

Regardless of what happened at Lincoln, the Rivals and the Z2's perform extremely well at El Toro. I don't think tires had much to due with the results. Lincoln was very tire dependent this year, it seems and the Solstice competed in CS, I think instead of RTR.

[autoXracer]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

With OEM 19" the gearing in the 370z is a bit tall. With the available tire sizes and what-not, they should be able to shorten up gearing/increase acceleration, while still have enough top end for most courses. Rivals also have some pretty large sizes in the 18" size vs the Dunlop. They can fit pretty meaty tires on that car and the wheels are wide (9J Front, 10J Rear), so they will be able to better stretch/square big size tires which typically means more grip.

With that be enough to overcome the weight difference? If we had a normal rev limiter, I would say it would be close, but with our fuel cut...its not as easy to man-handle the car at the top of 2nd gear. This is a disadvantage, IMO. We can up tire size to get more gearing, but at the cost of other factors such as turn-in, overall precision, acceleration. The reduction of these 3 alone can be tough for a momentum car like ours.

One of our local hotshoes is building a 370z, so I'll get to see first hand next year.

The current CS National champion 370Z told me a similar thing. After co-driving a FRS at a Pro Solo, said the lack of power and 2nd gear rev limiter is harsh.

It'll be course dependent for sure. Also with the MSR ZOK out of the way, we'll see the base MX5 and RX8 come out from the woods. Anyways should be interesting to see

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Competing in RTR this last year against the fully prepped a ZOK Solstice and MSR MX-5 not really competitive for us Twin drivers.

okay

so what then

FRS into D-Stock or Soltice and MSR MX-5 into B-Stock?

given the limited amount of classes, and the sheer volume of you Americans doing the sport, you're bound to end up with a few specific cars which will end up dominating

I personally don't care

and I don't think it's "unfair"

I much more find it "unfair" when someone shows up on fresh tires EVERY EVENT, refuses ride-alongs, an exhausts made of titanium...

but I digress


around where I am, we don't even have solstices or MSRs, so everyone else complains about how unfair the FRS/BRZs are...

given your limited class structure, you can't hope of getting it right for everybody. If you're really bumed about it, try changing your mindset, be the fastest FRS driver in NA and call it a day.

or hey.. you could always just try driving faster

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

okay

so what then

FRS into D-Stock or Soltice and MSR MX-5 into B-Stock?

Actually, D-Stock would be more ideal. Maybe not as far as the make up of the class (AWD, Rare ITRs), but PAX wise and time wise, it would be a good fit. I was disappointed that the proposal for moving us to E-Stock didn't go through. With the wheel allowance, I think the Twins vs the NB's would be a decent match-up. Basically a momentum car class.

Originally Posted by 7thgear

I much more find it "unfair" when someone shows up on fresh tires EVERY EVENT, refuses ride-alongs, an exhausts made of titanium...

This is actually MORE fair IMO than having unbalanced classing. Its your choice to loose by not allocating as much budget...If that's what YOU need to be competitive, that is.

Originally Posted by 7thgear

If you're really bumed about it, try changing your mindset, be the fastest FRS driver in NA and call it a day.

or hey.. you could always just try driving faster

This type of thinking is exactly what separates many "car guys" from "racers", as far as mindset, IMO. The point of racing is to compete with others. Believe it or not, for some people the competition aspect is where the real appeal is. The CLASS is where the competition is, not the car.

Competing in a unbalanced class is less fun. Competing in a balanced class can be VERY fun and rewarding. I prefer VERY fun and rewarding.

Either you get it or you don't.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Competing in a unbalanced class is less fun. Competing in a balanced class can be VERY fun and rewarding. I prefer VERY fun and rewarding.

Either you get it or you don't.

i'm part of the committee that writes the rules for our time attack series

i've been part of it for the last 8 years...

we may not be on the scale of SCCA, but i can tell you that "balancing classes" is down right a ridiculous thing. We can get it almost right, but there will always be outliers that we just can't account for.

"competing in a balanced class" is a pipe dream, people bitch and complain whenever they're not at the top, the arguments never changes.

everyone wants "fair", so long as "fair" is them being at the top.

i love it how you're putting me into the "car guys" class. Sheesh.

if you're gonna go that far then go into spec racing, then you'll know without a doubt how your skills stack.


and IMO NB miatas kill FRSs on technical courses... at least they do around here. Which is another thing about SCCA, so much depends on track layout you'll never be able to get it right.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

i'm part of the committee that writes the rules for our time attack series

i've been part of it for the last 8 years...

we may not be on the scale of SCCA, but i can tell you that "balancing classes" is down right a ridiculous thing. We can get it almost right, but there will always be outliers that we just can't account for.

"competing in a balanced class" is a pipe dream, people bitch and complain whenever they're not at the top, the arguments never changes.

everyone wants "fair", so long as "fair" is them being at the top.

i love it how you're putting me into the "car guys" class. Sheesh.

if you're gonna go that far then go into spec racing, then you'll know without a doubt how your skills stack.


and IMO NB miatas kill FRSs on technical courses... at least they do around here. Which is another thing about SCCA, so much depends on track layout you'll never be able to get it right.

Thank you for sharing your ideals and details regarding your sandbox.

My sandbox is in the SCCA and racing in my CLASS. Rather than just say, "screw this place and stupid classes, I'm going home!", I rather make my class, my sport better. For the SCCA, this basically means speaking up and letter writing. Making a balanced class is not easy. While doesn't need to be perfect, it can be better.

I think the SCCA had something fun going on with the RT classes.
I think with more tweaking and possibly a move toward data based handicaps, it could've had real potential...now there's a pipe dream for you!

Sorry to all for pulling this thread off subject. [END RANT]

[7thgear]

i never said for you to throw your hands up and leave

i simply said try to drive faster

but you'd rather be placed into a lower class where your chance at winning goes up instantly without you having to lift a finger

.

.


you know what, i hope they do put it in D-Stock, then you'll score much higher and feel awesome about yourself.

reminds me of every time the government lowers the poverty line, so people who used to be under it are all of a sudden over it and no longer feel poor...

[simpleisbest]

Wow! You conclusions are off!!! LOL!!

Don't do drugs. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[jprice130]

Creating balance within classes for multiple cars is nearly impossible. I'd love to see more balance too, but the only way to do that is create more classes and the SCCA has enough classes already. Most local events are riddled with folks running in 1 and 2 person classes as it is. That's definitely not any fun.

I know the comment about moving the twins to DS was just a joke, but even though the DS PAX is better, I don't think the twins could hang with the Audi TT on most courses. The twins were very competitive in RTR all year, so I think their position in C-Street will be just fine.