The BRZ STI has no balls for a reason

[AVOturboworld]

Given what I have experienced in Japan, and what I know of SoJ and it's internal politics... If there is a BRZ STI, right now the first "version" is more likely to be a "Tuned by STI" BRZ available at Japanese dealerships. Think bolt-on optional parts from STI only, nothing in-depth.

An actual turbocharged BRZ may be a ways off, and it's not necessarily going to be done by STI. Once you get past the marketing/branding nonsense that is thrown around to sell cars, the actual vehicles that the STI division actually works on and backs is fairly small and direct - the WRX STI, limited release models, and stuff like the Forester STI (JDM) that essentially re-used WRX STI parts. Otherwise, they simply have a lot of optional parts they either make or at least is branded as STI.

Witness the pink radiator cap, oil filter, tie-down and such. It might upset some purists, but those things probably makes them much more money than the actual performance parts, like the Group N bushings and such. Which is where the "Tuned by STI" models come from - rolling showcases of off the shelf STI option catalog parts.

Quite often these cars get mistakenly called STI's. They are not. Actual STI models are gone through much more thoroughly than that. Original ver. 1-4 STI's were handbuilt, literally. It's become more automated since then, but it's still a huge difference from the base cars that they re-do.

Anyways, to get back on track, the BRZ is not too likely to get a full STI version, at least not till they start rallying them. It's more likely that, if it gets a turbo, it'll be a factory turbo setup with some STI branding on it. IMHO, I'm on the fence about them putting a turbocharger in this car. A lot of the rumours I see towards it getting a turbocharged variant sounds to me a lot like the various rumours I've seen in the past towards STI Legacies or 400hp STI models - wishful thinking by people that personally want to see such things, have talked to PR people that'll nod and say "maybe", but don't actually have any inside line from Subaru about it.

My theory towards why the BRZ/FR-S were not turbocharged from the get-go has mostly to do with two things, cost and mpg. The second may be more important. US government has insisted upon the manufacturers getting better fleet mpg averages, and Subaru has always had issues with meeting those figures because their turbo models in the US are just not that efficient. They've been working hard on that, witness the return of the 2.0-liter motor to the US market and CVT transmissions. Another popular car that brings up the overall fleet average would help them a lot - and that's what the BRZ would do.

Regards,

Paul Hansen
www.avoturboworld.com
www.facebook.com/BRZSportsCarClub

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

Given what I have experienced in Japan, and what I know of SoJ and it's internal politics... If there is a BRZ STI, right now the first "version" is more likely to be a "Tuned by STI" BRZ available at Japanese dealerships. Think bolt-on optional parts from STI only, nothing in-depth.

An actual turbocharged BRZ may be a ways off, and it's not necessarily going to be done by STI. Once you get past the marketing/branding nonsense that is thrown around to sell cars, the actual vehicles that the STI division actually works on and backs is fairly small and direct - the WRX STI, limited release models, and stuff like the Forester STI (JDM) that essentially re-used WRX STI parts. Otherwise, they simply have a lot of optional parts they either make or at least is branded as STI.

Witness the pink radiator cap, oil filter, tie-down and such. It might upset some purists, but those things probably makes them much more money than the actual performance parts, like the Group N bushings and such. Which is where the "Tuned by STI" models come from - rolling showcases of off the shelf STI option catalog parts.

Quite often these cars get mistakenly called STI's. They are not. Actual STI models are gone through much more thoroughly than that. Original ver. 1-4 STI's were handbuilt, literally. It's become more automated since then, but it's still a huge difference from the base cars that they re-do.

Anyways, to get back on track, the BRZ is not too likely to get a full STI version, at least not till they start rallying them. It's more likely that, if it gets a turbo, it'll be a factory turbo setup with some STI branding on it. IMHO, I'm on the fence about them putting a turbocharger in this car. A lot of the rumours I see towards it getting a turbocharged variant sounds to me a lot like the various rumours I've seen in the past towards STI Legacies or 400hp STI models - wishful thinking by people that personally want to see such things, have talked to PR people that'll nod and say "maybe", but don't actually have any inside line from Subaru about it.

My theory towards why the BRZ/FR-S were not turbocharged from the get-go has mostly to do with two things, cost and mpg. The second may be more important. US government has insisted upon the manufacturers getting better fleet mpg averages, and Subaru has always had issues with meeting those figures because their turbo models in the US are just not that efficient. They've been working hard on that, witness the return of the 2.0-liter motor to the US market and CVT transmissions. Another popular car that brings up the overall fleet average would help them a lot - and that's what the BRZ would do.

Regards,

Paul Hansen
www.avoturboworld.com
www.facebook.com/BRZSportsCarClub

I agree with that assesment for the most part, especially the CAFE ratings.

Here in the US, though, I do think a forced induction car will arrive, be it called an STi or not.

-mike


11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.
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[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

The next gen of Impreza STi in my opinion will have significantly more power. That would allow a 300hp version of the BRZ to easily slide into the lineup. My guess is you will see the wrx and brz sti share a powerplant and the Wrx STi will get a bigger engine and power output.

A few things mike...

Next gen Impreza tuned by STi will still likely be using the G4 trim impreza platform under the 150hp FB20. Not to sure if the FA16DIT will make it in the engine bay...(but heres to hoping). So it really makes me question about the significant upgrade in power.



As far as WRX STi ..its anybodies guess really. The direction of the car is really just floating up in the air. If its going upscale..its gona have more power.. If its more hardcore the power will stay the same or come down a bit.

[Dark]

inb4 ichitaka comment on STI.

[Homemade WRX]

I'm still going to go with FA16DIT for the BRZ.

As for the WRX and STi switching platforms, that's been a long time coming and discussed/leaked and now confirmed. However with the FA20DIT and the FA16DIT, I'm not sure if the WRX will just get a 1.6 or a lower power variant of the 2.0L, compared to what the STi would get.

I'll still say 18 months or so form launch, expect a turbo in the BRZ platform.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

I'm still going to go with FA16DIT for the BRZ.

As for the WRX and STi switching platforms, that's been a long time coming and discussed/leaked and now confirmed. However with the FA20DIT and the FA16DIT, I'm not sure if the WRX will just get a 1.6 or a lower power variant of the 2.0L, compared to what the STi would get.

I'll still say 18 months or so form launch, expect a turbo in the BRZ platform.

I think the other markets (non-US) will get the FA16 engine but the US will get the FA20DIT for the STI model of the BRZ making 270 hp and the eventual WRX STI will get something near 305hp either by further tuning of the same engine or by going with a larger displacement.

[BattleArmor]

By the time a BRZ STI comes out, the WRX STI will have more power anyway.

That is all

[catharsis]

I don't think we'll ever see a factory turbo brz. It would eat sales into the wrx line up, and then would beg the question, why even bother with a wrx? It's sales are pretty low as it is, and they've just developed a new chassis specifically for it. It would not be cost effective to make the brz compete with the wrx and sti.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by catharsis

I don't think we'll ever see a factory turbo brz. It would eat sales into the wrx line up, and then would beg the question, why even bother with a wrx? It's sales are pretty low as it is, and they've just developed a new chassis specifically for it. It would not be cost effective to make the brz compete with the wrx and sti.

The new wrx is rumored to be different than what is currently offered. They are talking about a 2 dr hatch ala vw GTI and a sedan. I don't think a turbo rwd coupe priced at $34k will eat into the sales too much of an awd hatch/wagon or a 4 dr sedan which would start at $26k. Not only are they in 2 different segments the price will be way different. The next sti will have 300+ hp and may be similar in performance to a 270hp brz but the packaging is still different enough to attract different buyers.

The cost to produce these extra models is very low since they will be pulling parts from their existing bin so it would in fact be very cost efective. Your argument is like saying chevy shouldn't produce a more powerful camaro becaue it will eat into corvette sales yet we have the ZL1 hitting showrooms soon.

[catharsis]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

The new wrx is rumored to be different than what is currently offered. They are talking about a 2 dr hatch ala vw GTI and a sedan. I don't think a turbo rwd coupe priced at $34k will eat into the sales too much of an awd hatch/wagon or a 4 dr sedan which would start at $26k. Not only are they in 2 different segments the price will be way different. The next sti will have 300+ hp and may be similar in performance to a 270hp brz but the packaging is still different enough to attract different buyers.

The cost to produce these extra models is very low since they will be pulling parts from their existing bin so it would in fact be very cost efective. Your argument is like saying chevy shouldn't produce a more powerful camaro becaue it will eat into corvette sales yet we have the ZL1 hitting showrooms soon.

No, it's not that simple. See, Chevy and Ford sell alot MORE camaros/mustangs than subaru sells wrx/sti's. Sti's and Evo's don't reach 10,000 sales yearly, I have no idea on the wrx, but there's no doubt in my mind it doesn't come close to the american muscle car sales. They probably sell 15-20k yearly at best.

In 2011 ford sold 70k mustangs, and chevy sold 88k camaro's. They can afford to put out special niche models because they sell such a high volume of cars. Not to mention the Camaro has to compete with the Mustang and Ford had the boss and the shelby out for a while, Chevy felt they had to respond since these two cars are direct competitors.

If you're Subaru, and you have a hard time pushing STI's why would you then make a car that directly competes with it? You would get a 50/50 split of sales, after all that effort you just made to design a whole new car (the new wrx is no longer on the impreza chassis). It's not cost effective, and I don't see them doing it. Period. They would have to change a lot to make the turbo system fit on the brz, because of the engine's location. That means parts wouldn't be interchangeable between the brz and the wrx. Making it more complex and even less cost effective to do a brz sti. You may see a limited edition version at some point. But I think it would be a collector edition style vehicle, and not continually sold like the wrx sti is.

[KevinDuMa]

Originally Posted by catharsis

I don't think we'll ever see a factory turbo brz. It would eat sales into the wrx line up, and then would beg the question, why even bother with a wrx? It's sales are pretty low as it is, and they've just developed a new chassis specifically for it. It would not be cost effective to make the brz compete with the wrx and sti.

Originally Posted by catharsis

No, it's not that simple. See, Chevy and Ford sell alot MORE camaros/mustangs than subaru sells wrx/sti's. Sti's and Evo's don't reach 10,000 sales yearly, I have no idea on the wrx, but there's no doubt in my mind it doesn't come close to the american muscle car sales. They probably sell 15-20k yearly at best.

In 2011 ford sold 70k mustangs, and chevy sold 88k camaro's. They can afford to put out special niche models because they sell such a high volume of cars. Not to mention the Camaro has to compete with the Mustang and Ford had the boss and the shelby out for a while, Chevy felt they had to respond since these two cars are direct competitors.

If you're Subaru, and you have a hard time pushing STI's why would you then make a car that directly competes with it? You would get a 50/50 split of sales, after all that effort you just made to design a whole new car (the new wrx is no longer on the impreza chassis). It's not cost effective, and I don't see them doing it. Period. They would have to change a lot to make the turbo system fit on the brz, because of the engine's location. That means parts wouldn't be interchangeable between the brz and the wrx. Making it more complex and even less cost effective to do a brz sti. You may see a limited edition version at some point. But I think it would be a collector edition style vehicle, and not continually sold like the wrx sti is.

You sir I agree with. The new WRX will use a similar platform to the BRZ but it will be two different cars and it ends there. If the future holds a BRZ STI it would be a higher tuned NA engine which I would really love to see.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by catharsis

No, it's not that simple. See, Chevy and Ford sell alot MORE camaros/mustangs than subaru sells wrx/sti's. Sti's and Evo's don't reach 10,000 sales yearly, I have no idea on the wrx, but there's no doubt in my mind it doesn't come close to the american muscle car sales. They probably sell 15-20k yearly at best.

In 2011 ford sold 70k mustangs, and chevy sold 88k camaro's. They can afford to put out special niche models because they sell such a high volume of cars. Not to mention the Camaro has to compete with the Mustang and Ford had the boss and the shelby out for a while, Chevy felt they had to respond since these two cars are direct competitors.

If you're Subaru, and you have a hard time pushing STI's why would you then make a car that directly competes with it? You would get a 50/50 split of sales, after all that effort you just made to design a whole new car (the new wrx is no longer on the impreza chassis). It's not cost effective, and I don't see them doing it. Period. They would have to change a lot to make the turbo system fit on the brz, because of the engine's location. That means parts wouldn't be interchangeable between the brz and the wrx. Making it more complex and even less cost effective to do a brz sti. You may see a limited edition version at some point. But I think it would be a collector edition style vehicle, and not continually sold like the wrx sti is.

a brz sti makes as much sense as a wrx sti does. the segments don't really overlap. who is cross shopping a 370z with a wrx sti? one is a RWD sports coupe with insurance only back seats (BRZ) and the other is an AWD sedan that accommodates 4 adults.

I don't see how you can possibly state how much they would have to change to fit a turbocharged engine that hasn't been seen yet into a car that hasn't been released yet. The fact is they are using the same FA20 engine in the new WRX and that is going to be turbocharged. I don't believe for a second that subaru would develop 2 cars at the same time and not give themselves room in the engine bay to make it fit. These things are planned out very carefully and aren't just schemes hatched up in a back room halfway through a production cycle.

[DSR2409]

I very much doubt Subaru will release a turbo version...The whole philosophy from the beginning was to get rid of AWD, Turbo, and high grip tires, and to make a car for the purists...The people on here wanting a turbo and/or AWD version, are going to test drive the BRZ, feel incredibly disappointed, and end up with an STI, anyway. I don't think a turbo version would sell, even if they made one...

Someone also mentioned they would build said turbo/AWD version when they make the rally car, but Subaru already has the car built for GT300, so I wouldn't count on them taking it rallying, as well...

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by DSR2409

I very much doubt Subaru will release a turbo version...The whole philosophy from the beginning was to get rid of AWD, Turbo, and high grip tires, and to make a car for the purists...The people on here wanting a turbo and/or AWD version, are going to test drive the BRZ, feel incredibly disappointed, and end up with an STI, anyway. I don't think a turbo version would sell, even if they made one...

Someone also mentioned they would build said turbo/AWD version when they make the rally car, but Subaru already has the car built for GT300, so I wouldn't count on them taking it rallying, as well...

Agree they won't be rallying the car or making awd.

Everything else is just marketing hype. They have you hooked so mission accomplished. The rest of the world may not get a turbo but 200hp is not enough to compete in the US. Especially not when they will have an emissions approved engine sitting on the shelf. Throw in some brembos and suspension tweaks along with badges and instant sti version. I don't care if this is an sti car or a tuned by sti or whatever as was discussed at length earlier in this thread. In the US it is an sti model.