Why doesnt Toyota make its own motor for the FT-86??

[mrtodd]

Hmmm... Didn't the JDM Honda Concerto (around 90-91ish) come with a D16A9? IIRC, that engine made 130hp out of 1.6 liters on an available 4wd platform. That's about 81.25 hp/liter. The current 2.0 from subaru, as far as i can tell (and i admit that my knowledge on subies is very limited) is making between 150-160 hp, which is about 77.5 hp/liter.

Keep in mind that Honda made that little dual cam non-vtec beast of an engine 20 years ago.

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but IF my comparison is accurate then Subaru just doesn't seem to make very potent motors without the use of a turbo. Of course this is mostly based on my subjective opinion, because we all know that there are more factors than HP alone that makes an engine "good."

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Smog limitations were nearly non existent back in those days, so it was much easier to squeeze power out of an engine. With the strict rules (especially around a 4 cylinder engine) it can be tough to get 100hp/litre. Modern 1.6l engines average 100-110hp and close to same TQ. But note worthy is the fact that they are cleaner.

Also note worthy... Canadian model vehicles aren't much lower in power VS US model cars. and we have more rules / guide lines than California. So maybe my point is completely invalid now? (research mode enabled)

[mrtodd]

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

Smog limitations were nearly non existent back in those days, so it was much easier to squeeze power out of an engine. (research mode enabled)

I totally disagree. Take a look at the current Honda S2000, or more specifically the last generation powered by a 2.0L F20C had 247 HP in Japan, (237 in the states) which meets current emissions standards, it has, by far, the most potent HP/L ratio out there in a sub 40k car.

Sure, emissions weren't nearly as strict back then, but R&D wasn't nearly as effective/efficient as it is today. I don't think bringing up past emissions is a good argument at all. Fact of the matter is, we have NA motors today that produce more HP/L than 20 years ago, despite stricter emissions.



Now... Going back to what ichitaka05 brought up, I have to correct myself. I've only been looking at HP numbers. When I pulled up the specs on the current 2.0L boxer I found that it has TONS of torque (for the size), ~145lb/ft, I think. So, if we just look at peak torque numbers, the Subaru actually has the best ratio out there. Much better than what I can find out of any Toyota or Honda engine 1.6-2.0 liters in size.

That being said, I think ichitaka05 is right. It looks like AWD platforms, at least current ones, tend to be torque biased instead of having an hp bias.

[Siriusly.Andrew]

R&D has made a dramatic improvement to account for the ability to make more powerful / efficient engines compared to those of the early 90's.

Making my previous post completely null :P

though I found a bit of info from the Environment Canada website about emissions control.

"During any phase-in period, every model of vehicle or engine that is certified by the US EPA, and that is sold concurrently in Canada and the United States, is required to meet the same emission standards in Canada as in the United States. Canadian vehicles will therefore have progressively improved emission performance without specifying interim phase-in percentages in the Regulations. The final phased-in standards apply to all vehicles and engines sold in Canada, in the model year that they apply, to 100% of a class of vehicles or engines in the United States"

its like a mathematical equation where A = B but B does not = A. example "All bulldogs are Dogs" VS "All dogs are bulldogs"

EDIT : Im way off topic... lol

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by mrtodd

I totally disagree. Take a look at the current Honda S2000, or more specifically the last generation powered by a 2.0L F20C had 247 HP in Japan, (237 in the states) which meets current emissions standards, it has, by far, the most potent HP/L ratio out there in a sub 40k car.

Sure, emissions weren't nearly as strict back then, but R&D wasn't nearly as effective/efficient as it is today. I don't think bringing up past emissions is a good argument at all. Fact of the matter is, we have NA motors today that produce more HP/L than 20 years ago, despite stricter emissions.

Now... Going back to what ichitaka05 brought up, I have to correct myself. I've only been looking at HP numbers. When I pulled up the specs on the current 2.0L boxer I found that it has TONS of torque (for the size), ~145lb/ft, I think. So, if we just look at peak torque numbers, the Subaru actually has the best ratio out there. Much better than what I can find out of any Toyota or Honda engine 1.6-2.0 liters in size.

That being said, I think ichitaka05 is right. It looks like AWD platforms, at least current ones, tend to be torque biased instead of having an hp bias.

Glad my thought made sense.

Now, Subaru/Toyota doesn't need to make tq base engine cause FT86 is FR car, so well see better hp/l number for sure.

[mrtodd]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Glad my thought made sense.

Now, Subaru/Toyota doesn't need to make tq base engine cause FT86 is FR car, so well see better hp/l number for sure.

I sure hope so, but at the same time I no longer harbor such negative feelings towards the Subie 2.0L boxer, as it has it's strong points, just like chulooz mentioned on the previous page. Even so, i still do prefer a high revving, high HP motor over a torque monster; but such is just a personal preference.

I'm getting rather impatient for the official specs to come out.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by mrtodd

II'm getting rather impatient for the official specs to come out.

We all are, we all are...

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

We all are, we all are...

[jp1598]

Suburu recently started offering a 4 cyl. boxer diesel in europe and asia. I would love to see this motor offered in this new vehicle. Noone has offered a small sports car powered by a turbo diesel in a rear drive platform. I think this combo could yield an exciting car with superior efficiency.

[NESW20]

i'd prefer a high-revving gasoline engine. i wouldn't mind a diesel in a truck or a small family car (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...ge_top+stories) but i don't really want one in a sports car quite yet. the BMW 335d is a step in the right direction, but i'll still wait on signing up for a diesel sports car.

-Mike

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Originally Posted by NESW20

i'd prefer a high-revving gasoline engine. i wouldn't mind a diesel in a truck or a small family car. i'll still wait on signing up for a diesel sports car.

-Mike

I'm already anticipating a high revving gasoline motor, Diesels aren't know to be too rev happy.

[mrtodd]

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

I'm already anticipating a high revving gasoline motor, Diesels aren't know to be too rev happy.

X2 fo sho.

[Matador]

While many advances are being made in Diesel, it's not quite ready for this kind of car yet.

I'll take the gas engine please. To be honest, while I admire efficiency, I'd be more than satisfied with anything in the ballpark of 20/30 mpg city/hgwy mileage @ a tick over 200hp.

FE is not a high priority for me in a sports car. Race car... sure. Weekend bomber... why?



***disclaimer***

this is my personal preference. In the grand scheme of things, I think the FT *SHOULD* be fuel efficient, but not at the cost of a lot of performance.

[himbo]

Its not that the K20 isn't an awesome motor (I was going to buy an '08 Si). Its an incredible motor. Good gas mileage, burns clean, tons of power-and more with mods. BUT, you have to remember that any motor that exists now has to be up to regulation when new standards are set. I'm not so sure a motor as old as the K20 will be grandfathered in. The new standards will be extremely stringent- and in the end it would probably be cheaper to develop a new motor that will meet regs- than to modify the hell out of an existing motor. It may cost more to adapt parts that work with the motor AND comply with regs than to build one from the ground up with new rules in mind.

The reason that NA Subie motors have crappy hp/lt ration is because the motor traces its roots from the 1960's and it has absolutely terrible heads. I believe I heard that the FT86 will get a totally new motor...