Autocar: Ferrari F12 Berlinetta vs Toyota GT86 - which is more fun?

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Dazza

Those crazy Italians

The FF is not a very smart Ferrari, but, OK good point. My friend and I were out last Spring test driving his 360 spider and, wonder of wonders, we passed a FF equipped with four snow tires. Pirelli Sottozeros of course.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by chrisl

So, to be a good sports car, a car must be drivable in the winter? That's news to me...

(I guess an STi is the best sports car money can buy then, since it's a hoot in the snow)

No, but unless you want to drive it year round in any conditions it isn't a sportscar.

An STI is not a sportscar, it might be a sports sedan but it has too many doors to be a sportscar. Great car but not a sportscar.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Yes, because it is based on the Exige. However, the basic design, which is after all what we are talking about, is the same. The Venom is just a modified Exige. Really modified but still basically the same car.

still not really. i love how you differentiate the elise and exige when they are the same chassis but the venom is "basically the same". the venom is a pretty radical departure. the wheelbase is like a foot and a half longer. more power requires a bigger car and a bigger car is going to make rigidity a bigger issue as everything is farther away. the car is very different.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Suberman

No, but unless you want to drive it year round in any conditions it isn't a sportscar.

Wow. By that definition, pretty much any sports car ever made isn't a sports car.

[Deep Six]

Yes for some No for others

Problem solved let's move on

[AznKirby]

Originally Posted by Suberman

No, but unless you want to drive it year round in any conditions it isn't a sportscar.

An STI is not a sportscar, it might be a sports sedan but it has too many doors to be a sportscar. Great car but not a sportscar.

Does the STI provide thrills, execllent fun times and sensations? It's sporty.
Is it a car? Yup.
Sportscar.

What you're talking about it a sports coupe, which it is not.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

still not really. i love how you differentiate the elise and exige when they are the same chassis but the venom is "basically the same". the venom is a pretty radical departure. the wheelbase is like a foot and a half longer. more power requires a bigger car and a bigger car is going to make rigidity a bigger issue as everything is farther away. the car is very different.

Well, this is no different from what Lotus did to the Elise to build the Exige S.

Lotus stuck an extra few inches into the body and fit a whacking great Toyota V6.

All Lotus cars are basically the same construction. Lotus consults to other manufacturers wishing to build in modular scalable style, in aluminum. Aston Martin springs to mind.

You're technically correct that the Exige and the Elise are the same car, as is the Evora, the Europa (recent one, not the Chapman era one) and the Venom actually.

The Lotus design is scalable and you can basically build the same car just about any size you want.

On that point the new Lexus Coupe looks awfully like a scaled up FRS....

[mrk1]

I driven a pretty good selection of sports cars with my jobs over the years and I do have to say the BRZ is honestly great fun. You just have to remove that all out speed factory since that will obviously skew the the results.

[Brzetto]

Even if I had the money to afford the F12 I still would have picked my BRZ. This is getting ridiculous though, stop comparing afford sports cars to cars only wealthy old geezers drive.

[Meehow86]

For me, the number one reason I'd take the GT86 over the Ferrari is the DIY factor. One of the main reasons I bought a BRZ is the ability to work on it at home. I get a connection to the car whenever I work on it and that's something I wouldn't be able to do with a Ferrari or most other super cars.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Well, this is no different from what Lotus did to the Elise to build the Exige S.

Lotus stuck an extra few inches into the body and fit a whacking great Toyota V6.

All Lotus cars are basically the same construction. Lotus consults to other manufacturers wishing to build in modular scalable style, in aluminum. Aston Martin springs to mind.

You're technically correct that the Exige and the Elise are the same car, as is the Evora, the Europa (recent one, not the Chapman era one) and the Venom actually.

The Lotus design is scalable and you can basically build the same car just about any size you want.

On that point the new Lexus Coupe looks awfully like a scaled up FRS....

yeah. the new exige is also different than the old exige. i dont know if you are just ignoring the fact that adding a foot or so to wheelbase is a significant engineering feat and that it will drastically change the nature of the cars stability and handling in general or if you just dont think its an issue but i assure you, its significant.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

yeah. the new exige is also different than the old exige. i dont know if you are just ignoring the fact that adding a foot or so to wheelbase is a significant engineering feat and that it will drastically change the nature of the cars stability and handling in general or if you just dont think its an issue but i assure you, its significant.

Well, I don't say making an Exige into a Venom is easy. But I was pointing out that it isn't that hard structurally. As for handling changes from wheelbase extension that isn't very hard to deal with either for a road car.

Lotus scalable engineered structures are suitable for projects like the Venom and some electric cars. Other manufacturers have noticed.

This thread was originally about the BRZ/FRS as compared to a supercar. The fact that you could make one into the other with enough money probably isn't germane to the discussion.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Well, I don't say making an Exige into a Venom is easy. But I was pointing out that it isn't that hard structurally. As for handling changes from wheelbase extension that isn't very hard to deal with either for a road car.

Lotus scalable engineered structures are suitable for projects like the Venom and some electric cars. Other manufacturers have noticed.

This thread was originally about the BRZ/FRS as compared to a supercar. The fact that you could make one into the other with enough money probably isn't germane to the discussion.

my point is that the venom isnt just an elise with added power. just like adding power isnt going to make the frs better or faster than the f12

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

my point is that the venom isnt just an elise with added power. just like adding power isnt going to make the frs better or faster than the f12

That's an interesting speculation which we are no doubt going to get answered fairly soon: how much power can the stock chassis use?

I suspect if you fit decent tires the BRZ could handle around 300 bhp with no modification. That should drop the 0-60 time under 5 seconds and maybe more like 4.5 seconds assuming the power is provided by supercharging of some type.

I also suspect that a 2.5 litre version of the new motor would be an easy thing for Subaru to build and that they will do so for their larger North American market models.

So, closer to 400 bhp seems easily achievable. Mercedes has just released a road car with a 355 bhp 2.0 litre turbo engine!

Fit slightly stiffer springs and shocks to match and the BRZ could easily handle 400 bhp. The car would still weigh less than 3,000 lbs. I think you'll be in F12 territory by then.

We shall see. Horsepower and speed are becoming very unfashionable and we may be seeing the end of the true supercar as we have known it. There is nowhere to drive them.

In this light, the current BRZ as it comes from the factory may be ahead of its time. Performance of supercars may drop down closer to the existing BRZ range before too much longer.