Driver coaching and the risks of the passenger seat

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

The idea of me coaching you makes me laugh, but anyways....

A lot of the groups around here aren't all that restrictive on safety. For ITR Expo, we require 100% OEM (or OEM equiv - OEM belts, OEM or OEM style seats (OEMs from other cars, etc), no rollover protection) or 100% the other way - roll bar/cage, fixed back buckets and harnesses. Equal for driver and passenger required. However, locally groups don't seem to care and I've seen plenty of unsafe (IMO) setups.

There is always more to learn; I have a very small subset of driving skills in my repertoire and I'd like to expand that.

In particular, I'm only really experienced with RWD; I have minimal seat time in AWD and FWD cars, and my driving style reflects that. There's a lot of time to be gained by broadening my perspective.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

There is always more to learn; I have a very small subset of driving skills in my repertoire and I'd like to expand that.

In particular, I'm only really experienced with RWD; I have minimal seat time in AWD and FWD cars, and my driving style reflects that. There's a lot of time to be gained by broadening my perspective.

That's true.

[ATL BRZ]

"The closer you are to death, the more alive you feel. It's a wonderful way to live. It's the only way to drive." -James Hunt

It's a risk I frequently take.

I do my best to be confident in my student's cars by checking them over myself and asking them lots of questions before getting up to speed.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

"The closer you are to death, the more alive you feel. It's a wonderful way to live. It's the only way to drive." -James Hunt

That's easy then.. put a roll cage in a street car with stock seats and roll around without a seatbelt and no helmet. Close to death for sure

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

That's easy then.. put a roll cage in a street car with stock seats and roll around without a seatbelt and no helmet. Close to death for sure

[rice_classic]

I just finished a conversation this evening that would put me back in the instructors seat next year.

Sean Edwards was definitely on my mind as I made my 2014 commitments.

[maj75]

Was talking with my Instructor at Sebring today. He suffered a broken neck, and two herniated discs in a crash at Sebring while instructing. Was still instructing with a neck collar. I appreciate the dedication, but no way would I have been out there with his injuries.

Several hard offs this weekend in the Green Group, a Jaguar XK, a Miata and an Infinity G coupe. Weather was perfect as was the track.

Pretty sobering passing up those banged-up cars.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

"The closer you are to death, the more alive you feel. It's a wonderful way to live. It's the only way to drive." -James Hunt

Now that I'm approaching my mid 30's, I'm reluctant to live by the words of a man whose lifestyle arguably lead to his untimely death at the age of 45.

At the end of the day we are little more than a loosely held together bag of blood.

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Now that I'm approaching my mid 30's, I'm reluctant to live by the words of a man whose lifestyle arguably lead to his untimely death at the age of 45.

At the end of the day we are little more than a loosely held together bag of blood.

[rice_classic]

"Pool of Sharks"
-Novices and fast cars at the track.



Have you ever thought about attending a "swim with the sharks" program and thought to yourself that you should be able to skip orientation, skip the safety devices and just raise your hand and say: "I just want to know how deep I can free dive!" Yeah, neither have I for the obvious reasons, sharks have big mouths, sharp teeth and when you look a lot like food, they're rather unforgiving about that. If all you want to do is free dive, you're in the wrong place.

All of this sounds logical doesn't it? Yet a very similar thing happens at track days all across the country. Only a few decades ago the cars that were regularly showing up to tracks days offered a much lower level of performance on average than the sports cars of today. The modern (and even affordable) sports cars of today are incredible. What is more common nowadays than 180hp Honda at a track is a 300hp Porsche 911 or a 450hp Corvette. Just to pick on the 911 for a moment; this car is RWD, has the engine behind the rear axle and it's comes with a lot of power. It makes sense that this car would be at the track but often times very capable sports cars like the 911, like the Corvette are accompanied by owners who have no prior high performance driving experience and brought this as their tool to learn with, or worse, to not learn with. That's the scary part, "not to learn with". Just like swimming with a hungry shark can be unforgiving, getting it wrong at the speeds these cars are capable of can be equally unforgiving.

This is a reality for many instructors, a driver with no prior high performance experience in a car like a 911 and says: "I don't really want all the instruction I just want to know how fast my car goes." That guy... Yeah, that guy should have taken his car to a drag strip or the salt flats. It's like jumping in with the sharks without paying attention in class. But it gets worse. In our scenario he will be putting another life at risk in his passenger seat. Now, the guy at the shark school who is jumping in without instruction or safety equipment is pulling you in with him. If you're reading this and just want to know how fast your car can go then by all means do that, just don't attend an event with an organization that puts another human being your passenger seat.

Standing on a pier and looking into water with sharks circling around has some pretty obvious clues as what not to do. You can have zero diving experience and the consequences are pretty obvious. Being at a race track in a modern sports car, surrounded by all the modern safety devices, can easily make someone feel safe. The dangers simply are not as obvious but they are still very much real.

So I keep this in mind. There are a lot of novice drivers coming to the track and they're showing up in some very powerful machines. It is important that they recognize the "sharks in the water". If my student wants to go 'free diving' and disregard instruction, they can do so without me. I'm not dying (or getting injured) today because someone wants to be a youtube hero.

[CSG Mike]

I've refused to get into cars and refunded students.

For the days where I instruct on a voluntary basis, the organizations will not assign students with cars that lack adequate safety equipment. The instructor still has the choice to stop instructing at any time, and I've exercised that right on occasion when I get a student that doesn't want to listen at all.

I'm not sure why people request an instructor, only to not listen.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

"Pool of Sharks"
-Novices and fast cars at the track.



Have you ever thought about attending a "swim with the sharks" program and thought to yourself that you should be able to skip orientation, skip the safety devices and just raise your hand and say: "I just want to know how deep I can free dive!" Yeah, neither have I for the obvious reasons, sharks have big mouths, sharp teeth and when you look a lot like food, they're rather unforgiving about that. If all you want to do is free dive, you're in the wrong place.

All of this sounds logical doesn't it? Yet a very similar thing happens at track days all across the country. Only a few decades ago the cars that were regularly showing up to tracks days offered a much lower level of performance on average than the sports cars of today. The modern (and even affordable) sports cars of today are incredible. What is more common nowadays than 180hp Honda at a track is a 300hp Porsche 911 or a 450hp Corvette. Just to pick on the 911 for a moment; this car is RWD, has the engine behind the rear axle and it's comes with a lot of power. It makes sense that this car would be at the track but often times very capable sports cars like the 911, like the Corvette are accompanied by owners who have no prior high performance driving experience and brought this as their tool to learn with, or worse, to not learn with. That's the scary part, "not to learn with". Just like swimming with a hungry shark can be unforgiving, getting it wrong at the speeds these cars are capable of can be equally unforgiving.

This is a reality for many instructors, a driver with no prior high performance experience in a car like a 911 and says: "I don't really want all the instruction I just want to know how fast my car goes." That guy... Yeah, that guy should have taken his car to a drag strip or the salt flats. It's like jumping in with the sharks without paying attention in class. But it gets worse. In our scenario he will be putting another life at risk in his passenger seat. Now, the guy at the shark school who is jumping in without instruction or safety equipment is pulling you in with him. If you're reading this and just want to know how fast your car can go then by all means do that, just don't attend an event with an organization that puts another human being your passenger seat.

Standing on a pier and looking into water with sharks circling around has some pretty obvious clues as what not to do. You can have zero diving experience and the consequences are pretty obvious. Being at a race track in a modern sports car, surrounded by all the modern safety devices, can easily make someone feel safe. The dangers simply are not as obvious but they are still very much real.

So I keep this in mind. There are a lot of novice drivers coming to the track and they're showing up in some very powerful machines. It is important that they recognize the "sharks in the water". If my student wants to go 'free diving' and disregard instruction, they can do so without me. I'm not dying (or getting injured) today because someone wants to be a youtube hero.

So true. It seems like the faster the car, the higher risk of there being an idiot behind the wheel. I know this past year a 'problem' student in a HPDE day was running a Ford GT500. Lost his brakes going down a straight and went off with instructor, flipped and totalled the car. Luckily nobody was hurt, but afterwards he mentioned to the instructor "yeah, it did feel like my brake pedal was starting to get soft a few laps ago".....

[sittinSideways]

Originally Posted by canu_50

This.. I had the same thing happen to me when i start rolling over at 75 in the passanger seat. brought my arm towards my torso and relaxed.. It feels a bit akward but when everything stops and dust settle, your happy to have the right intuition.

Why does one relax during an accident? Might that cause whiplash as the g-forces knock you around?

[akuhei]

Originally Posted by sittinSideways

Why does one relax during an accident? Might that cause whiplash as the g-forces knock you around?

Ever heard of a drunk driving crash where one/several people die but the drunk driver lives? When you tense up or brace yourself, you make yourself very stiff and you fight against the forces that are trying to move you, adding more stress to your body/bones. Letting yourself be relaxed (as much as possible with the body trying to protect itself) allows you to move with the crash which can help limit the force of the impacts and all the car's safety devices to better protect you.

I hope that all makes sense.

Sent from the past.