What does it cost you to race? (Cost of racing)

[ayau]

Originally Posted by ultra

Q: What does it cost you to race?

A: Everything, if you don't have clear goals, expectations and a budget to match set in stone *before* you start racing.

I'm saying that as a guy who veeered between track days, autocross and time attack competition in street oriented cars over a number of years until I eventually ran out of bank account, at which point I realized that I could have bought and raced a Radical for the same money I spend hopping up, breaking and repairing numerous street cars.

Also, the best proper racing action I ever had was in Go Karts. Go figure.

Main point: think, plan and set limits before you dive in.

Will you be racing your 86?

[ayau]

Originally Posted by ultra

Q: What does it cost you to race?

A: Everything, if you don't have clear goals, expectations and a budget to match set in stone *before* you start racing.

I'm saying that as a guy who veeered between track days, autocross and time attack competition in street oriented cars over a number of years until I eventually ran out of bank account, at which point I realized that I could have bought and raced a Radical for the same money I spend hopping up, breaking and repairing numerous street cars.

Also, the best proper racing action I ever had was in Go Karts. Go figure.

Main point: think, plan and set limits before you dive in.

With that said, will you be racing your 86?

[ultra]

Originally Posted by ayau

With that said, will you be racing your 86?

No, not seriously (with any real intent to win).

Since I've modified my car to be the way I like it and not built it to suit any local race classifications, there's little chance of me being outright competitive.

For example, our local Autocross classifications would put me in a generic 'RWD Modified' class where I would end up going against anything you can imagine - S2Ks and M3s, right up to similarly prepped Z06s or Porsche GT3s. Competing against casual drivers I might luck into a top 3 now and again. Against seasoned drivers, not much chance. Also the possible extra expense of R compound rubber and the associated hassles (transport, preparation).

Same thing goes for local Time Attack, except more so in terms of non-competitiveness due to how power deficits play out on big open circuits.

Could an intelligently modified and exceptionally well driven 86 or BRZ be a possible giant slayer? Are huge upsets possible given sheer talent? It can sure happen, given the right conditions and depending on the level of the competition. Is it a reasonable bet to make assuming all things are equal and the competition is as strong as can be? Not so much.

The post above about Spec Miata is bang on. The guys who really want to be on top and have the extra means will tend to take things to the maximum that the rules will allow, no matter how small the pond is. It's also pretty safe to assume that the folks at the top of any racing class or series will be pretty talented behind the wheel as well. Competition is, well, inevitable.

So apart from setting some limits before racing I think it's helpful to ask yourself: "Why do you race"?

For me the answer is simply "enjoyment" and "getting better". For others it's "to win", which can become a dangerous zero sum game.

Therefore what I will do is race for occasional kicks - against the clock or against myself, wherever I want and whenever I want. Compete against myself at track days. Catch the occasional bigger fish maybe. It may be a bit lame but at least it's realistic, fun, obtainable and sustainable.

So why do you race?

[solidONE]

Go karts and mini-motos with small organizations is where it's at for people who want "pure" racing on the cheap (relatively). Though I'd imagine once you get into national level competitions they'd be much like any other types of racing. Talent and a average income/budget alone will not win you races at those levels.

Maybe try BMX racing? lol

[rice_classic]

Giant killer? That all depends on how you define giant.

1000hp GTR? Maybe not.

A racing class that restricts power to 300whp or less.. Then absolutely.


After spending an extensive amount of time running the numbers, I can't figure out how to race an FRS for anywhere near the cost of racing an S2000 even if you exclude the price of the car.

[Element Tuning]

I remember actually winning a $2500 purse and someone mentioning, "drinks on Phil." I laughed and said, "that didn't even cover the tire bill." LOL!

The car, the class, and how competitive you are heavily dictates the budget. If I'm not winning tires, one championship round in my "Unlimited" class STi is $6k+ per race (2 race average). This is tires, brake pads, race fuel, fuel to and from race, engine oil, hotel, feeding volunteer crew, and the entry fee. This does not take into account maintenance like engines, brake rotors, hubs, bearings, splitters, or upgrades that clearly need attention on a winning car.

I get asked often what car should I race or what class, etc. and nobody like to hear, "how much money do you have," but honestly you need to start with your budget and work back from there. Lightweight and low power cars don't cord $2200 slicks in 19 laps or blow through front pads in a weekend.

Oh and to race with a top team it can easily exceed $25k per race...the tire bill alone can hit $10k. But hey if you're loaded it's easier to pay that then to fund and manage your own team.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Giant killer? That all depends on how you define giant.

1000hp GTR? Maybe not.

A racing class that restricts power to 300whp or less.. Then absolutely.


After spending an extensive amount of time running the numbers, I can't figure out how to race an FRS for anywhere near the cost of racing an S2000 even if you exclude the price of the car.

need you to post that in the s2k vs frs thread....

[Element Tuning]

NA FRS is a pretty cheap and fast out of the box track car if you ask me! The most important thing however is that its a fun and enjoyable car to track. There are plenty faster but way more sucky cars to drive!

[ultra]

It seems like a bit of a shame to write this car off from a competition point of view so quick because it's still a pretty new platform and this car is a BLAST to drive hard yet so easy to live with day to day but no doubt it does seem to occupy a very tricky area on the power versus weight versus cost scale.

In other words it's light but nowhere near the lightest nor can it easily/cheaply be made to lay down a whole lot of reliable brute force.

I'd run it in the lower Autocross classes and, forgetting championships and just focusing on fun, I'll happily play the game of trying to catch S2000s and M3s (or stay ahead of Miatas) in the FR-S at casual HPDE events all day long, even if it's a bit of an underdog game.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by ultra

It seems like a bit of a shame to write this car off from a competition point of view so quick

This is a "cost of racing" thread but on the FT86 forums it makes sense that we discuss the FRS in the context of cost of racing. The Twins are not underdogs regarding performance, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

It's more about viability of cost, not viability of performance. You can make a car do anything with a big enough wallet. The goal is running a target lap time at the lowest operational cost.

Let's say I turn a 1:51 lap time in the stock FRS but to be competitive in my preferred class I need to turn 1:31's at a minimum. My goal when choosing a platform is based around achieving the laptime with the lowest cost of operation.

Fuel, Tires and parts are the biggest operational expenses.

FUEL COST:
Pump gas < E85 < Race Fuel : So the target for the platform should be the viability of running pump gas.

TIRE COST:
Toyo DOT < Hoosier DOT < Hoosier Slick : So the target for the platform should be viability of running Toyo DOT r-comps if possible. Secondary factor is rate of wear the platform puts on the tires.

PARTS COST: (a bit more complex to calculate)
factors: Longevity of engine, transmission, differential. The estimated cost of wear items: tie rods, ball joints, hubs, bearings etc.


When I start penciling out the math to achieve that 1:31 lap time and the operation cost of running a car at that speed, the FRS just doesn't fit the bill. YET.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

This is a "cost of racing" thread but on the FT86 forums it makes sense that we discuss the FRS in the context of cost of racing. The Twins are not underdogs regarding performance, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

It's more about viability of cost, not viability of performance. You can make a car do anything with a big enough wallet. The goal is running a target lap time at the lowest operational cost.

Let's say I turn a 1:51 lap time in the stock FRS but to be competitive in my preferred class I need to turn 1:31's at a minimum. My goal when choosing a platform is based around achieving the laptime with the lowest cost of operation.

Fuel, Tires and parts are the biggest operational expenses.

FUEL COST:
Pump gas < E85 < Race Fuel : So the target for the platform should be the viability of running pump gas.

TIRE COST:
Toyo DOT < Hoosier DOT < Hoosier Slick : So the target for the platform should be viability of running Toyo DOT r-comps if possible. Secondary factor is rate of wear the platform puts on the tires.

PARTS COST: (a bit more complex to calculate)
factors: Longevity of engine, transmission, differential. The estimated cost of wear items: tie rods, ball joints, hubs, bearings etc.


When I start penciling out the math to achieve that 1:31 lap time and the operation cost of running a car at that speed, the FRS just doesn't it the bill. YET.

I've won every class I've entered my FRS in and trust me when I say all my "money" is in R&D and not in the cost of the parts. You don't just shop the parts catalog and win races, so I'm not going to say the average person can do what I did, but I do sell everything we put on our car.

This 1:31 target of yours, what cars hit that? Is that Spec Miata lap record, Spec E30,..where does it fall? I'm just trying to give you a feel for what I've achieved with our car reasonable money.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

This 1:31 target of yours, what cars hit that? Is that Spec Miata lap record, Spec E30,..where does it fall? I'm just trying to give you a feel for what I've achieved with our car reasonable money.

1st question: what class are you racing in? What fuel and tires are you using? Are you w2w racing or Time Trial?

As for the lap time.
This 1:31 target is roughly 10 seconds faster then the fastest Spec Miata.

This class has a 10:1 power to weight ratio cap.

Cars in this class:
E46, E92 M3s
Subaru STI
C5 Corvette
Porsche 968 turbo

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I've won every class I've entered my FRS in and trust me when I say all my "money" is in R&D and not in the cost of the parts. You don't just shop the parts catalog and win races, so I'm not going to say the average person can do what I did, but I do sell everything we put on our car.

Can you give some examples of lap times at some tracks? I looked at your website and it looks like you did some TT's with stock power and now you have a 400hp monster. I'd really like to look at your lap times at these various tracks so I can I further my research.

I do really want my math to be wrong, I'd like the FRS to be an option. Thank you in advance.


edit: It looks like you felt you could have a done a 1:39 at NJMP with stock power on race tires (even old ones) but it surprised me that race weight was 3000lbs? Why so heavy? Also, as of 2009 the ITA track record at NJMP is a 1:36.2. ITA cars usually have a power to weight ratio of 18:1 and run tires like 225 Hoosier R6's or Toyo RA1s for reference.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Can you give some examples of lap times at some tracks? I looked at your website and it looks like you did some TT's with stock power and now you have a 400hp monster. I'd really like to look at your lap times at these various tracks so I can I further my research.

I do really want my math to be wrong, I'd like the FRS to be an option. Thank you in advance.


edit: It looks like you felt you could have a done a 1:39 at NJMP with stock power on race tires (even old ones) but it surprised me that race weight was 3000lbs? Why so heavy? Also, as of 2009 the ITA track record at NJMP is a 1:36.2. ITA cars usually have a power to weight ratio of 18:1 and run tires like 225 Hoosier R6's or Toyo RA1s for referenchie.

Ok so running 10 seconds faster than "spec miata" won't fall into cheap but I'll list some mods/classes and track times for you.

Ok so you know NJMP..high weight because stock plus my STi race wheels which are 18x10 with 285/645-18 slicks, driver, full tank of gas, so that was added to factory weight. Make sure the lap times you look up include the chicane at NJMP because Grand AM ST Qualify in the 1:33-1:34 range and they run 13lbs/hp and my FRS at 19lbs/hp (2950/153hp). My wheels way too heavy and tall for na frs fast lap.

1:43 Road Atlanta on Hankook RS3, coilovers, brakes, +15hp?...mods listed elsewhere and again heavy.

1:18 Summit Point in NASA ST2/TT2. My tire choice has me very resticted in class so 325 whp/2990 lbs. I was a tick off the class/track record. Had I known I could have shaved a 10th or so I needed. Track record is held by C6 race prepped Z06.

2:04 VIR Full again in TT2 trim 325whp/2990 lbs. Grand AM GS pole a couple years ago was 2:03-2:04s.

1:29 NJ Thunderbolt again in TT2 trim 325 whp/2960 lbs. Grand AM GS pole 1:28-1:29.

Hope that helps. The car seems totally competitive in power/weight ratio classes but I don't know about scca bullshit classing