Frs vs s2000

[kcam86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm not trying to prove the S2000 is "better". In some ways it is (power, weight distribution, etc.), and in some ways it isn't (road noise, chassis stiffness, etc.). Whether it's "better" to anyone depends on what they want and need.

The argument is whether it is or was a "$40k" car vs. the 86 being a "$25k" car. It was never a $40k car in that context (MSRP vs. MSRP). If it had continued to go up in MSRP by 1%/yr as it had over its history, it would have been $36.5k in 2013, vs. $24.5k for the base FR-S and $27.5k for the more directly comparable (leather + HIDs) BRZ Limited.

There's no need to exaggerate to make the point. It *was* more $$$. But it wasn't $40k vs. $25k. That is all I've been arguing.

The next question you need to answer is when are you getting an 86. I see the 240, rx7 and 2000. Clearly you love similar cars this is the next one you have try. Just natural progression :P

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by kcam86

Well I can assure you my first event yesterday was an eye opener. I can also assure you that the totem pole was built on me haha. I haven't notched my way on to the bottom of the pole yet lol. The one thing I kept thinking as I grew more and more balls during the event was with coilovers and wheels I could hit these corners so much faster. It was terrifying increasing my speeds through the turns each time due to the fact there was pools of water on everyside of the track(It was a police training track with ditches all over). But I can say with confidence I earned the name "tokyo drift" that day because I was sliding around every corner not because I tried to but because I had prius tires lol.

By changing the tires, aligning the car with crash bolts, brake pads, and fluid, you should be able to gain significant time without spending money on coilovers or other tiny suspension components. Highend coilovers has proven to be significant for this car like it was designed with that in mind. The stock suspension is capable, but most people haven't quite exploited it properly yet.

[kcam86]

Originally Posted by CSG David

By changing the tires, aligning the car with crash bolts, brake pads, and fluid, you should be able to gain significant time without spending money on coilovers or other tiny suspension components. Highend coilovers has proven to be significant for this car like it was designed with that in mind. The stock suspension is capable, but most people haven't quite exploited it properly yet.

With that in mind, if you were to start over what wheel/tire combo would you gravitate towards? Also if you don't mind enlightening me(total noob haha) when would it be worth it to upgrade the brakes to a big kit. And one last thing since my whole mod list has been fliped upside down and all turned around, if you were to start over with a tight budget would you do mod like "Tires, wheels, tune, headers, drive shaft and pulleys" or some other route that would make you faster. My goal in the end is to have a track car where I can compete with high end cars because I can drive my slow car fast. When I was beating vettes at this event I can't describe how good it felt lol.

[iLuveKetchup]

Does CSG BRZ still have engine issues? Not a knock on the twins, I am honestly curious because I want to consolidate cars to a BRZ.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by aCab

@ZDan, you're crazy trying to come into and FRS/BRZ board and try and prove the s2000 is the better car. Come on man, you know better. I know you know your stuff, Mike knows you know your stuff, but these ft86 members don't. You're just going in circles.

LOL!

Originally Posted by kcam86

With that in mind, if you were to start over what wheel/tire combo would you gravitate towards? Also if you don't mind enlightening me(total noob haha) when would it be worth it to upgrade the brakes to a big kit. And one last thing since my whole mod list has been fliped upside down and all turned around, if you were to start over with a tight budget would you do mod like "Tires, wheels, tune, headers, drive shaft and pulleys" or some other route that would make you faster. My goal in the end is to have a track car where I can compete with high end cars because I can drive my slow car fast. When I was beating vettes at this event I can't describe how good it felt lol.

Brakes on the FRS/BRZ are simply larger overall compared to the S2000. This is simple fact. Therefore, BBK is not necessary, but I can go into detail over the PM.

In the end, it's all about a balanced setup. It's why a 200hp stock engine BRZ/FRS can keep up with monster beasts at certain tracks. It's all in the setup that allows the driver to push the car comfortably to that limit. When car modification is setup properly, the driver is the limiting factor. The base factory setup is actually setup to a very high level, but people seem to assume that you will need a variety of parts to go faster. There are only a few proven things backed by data that will allow you to increase the limits of the car. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

Does CSG BRZ still have engine issues? Not a knock on the twins, I am honestly curious because I want to consolidate cars to a BRZ.

We are careful, but uh...we still drive the car harder than 99% of the BRZ/FRS on track... oops?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by kcam86

The next question you need to answer is when are you getting an 86. I see the 240, rx7 and 2000. Clearly you love similar cars this is the next one you have try. Just natural progression :P

I would have thought I'd have one by now! But given work uncertainties, no car payment makes sense for the moment. With more security, I'll probably sell the S2k and get one. Or another used S2k!

[kcam86]

Originally Posted by CSG David

LOL!



Brakes on the FRS/BRZ are simply larger overall compared to the S2000. This is simple fact. Therefore, BBK is not necessary, but I can go into detail over the PM.

In the end, it's all about a balanced setup. It's why a 200hp stock engine BRZ/FRS can keep up with monster beasts at certain tracks. It's all in the setup that allows the driver to push the car comfortably to that limit. When car modification is setup properly, the driver is the limiting factor. The base factory setup is actually setup to a very high level, but people seem to assume that you will need a variety of parts to go faster. There are only a few proven things backed by data that will allow you to increase the limits of the car. Everything else is just icing on the cake.



We are careful, but uh...we still drive the car harder than 99% of the BRZ/FRS on track... oops?

I see, I would have to concur that I was a huge limiting factor lol. I increased my speed a total of 4 seconds from the start of my track day til the end. I still feel I could squeeze another second or 2 out of it stock. I guess I'm going a different route since speaking with you. Wheels, Pads/Fluids, Headers, oil cooler, pulleys. There is one mod I love to pester you about and this is a alum/cf drive shaft. Id just love to hear your opinions.

[AyJay]

I can't help but LMAO @ people when they say the twins have an advantage over the S2000 because they're "easier to drive fast".

In that same line of thinking, 250cc sport bikes are easier to drive fast also... but I don't see people running out to buy 250s unless they are chicks or daisy fresh noobs.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Bullshit. No amount of dancing around makes this statement remotely true.
YES, the s2000 was a more expensive car, there is no doubt about it. It was not ever a "$40k" car in the same sense that the 86 is a "$25k" car.

Damn...

And no amount of selective editing and regurgitating minutiae makes your point relevant to anything substantive here at all.

The $35K S2000 w/ hardtop is close and $38K S2000 w/ a hardtop is certainly a $40K car even by your standards. Yes you selectively edited the top of the line S2000 and that I was shopping hardtopped models.

Damn...

I find it funny you say you aren't out to prove the S2000 is better but give that post a 'thanks' lol. It's clear you are so hung up on an irrelevant and menaningless semantic discrepancy because you are a personally biased S2000 owner.

Regardless, I'm glad you decided to cease your holy Children's crusade. Thanks.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

And no amount of selective editing and regurgitating minutiae makes your point relevant to anything substantive here at all.

The $35K S2000 w/ hardtop is close and $38K S2000 w/ a hardtop is certainly a $40K car even by your standards. Yes you selectively edited the top of the line S2000 and that I was shopping hardtopped models.

Damn...

I find it funny you say you aren't out to prove the S2000 is better but give that post a 'thanks' lol. It's clear you are so hung up on an irrelevant and menaningless semantic discrepancy because you are a personally biased S2000 owner.

Regardless, I'm glad you decided to cease your holy Children's crusade. Thanks.

the bottom line is that the facts you used to make your argument were inaccurate. and at 36300, the cr already comes with a hard top so by his standards, its still not a 40k car. i suggest you just start over. use fact that correlate to what happens in the real world and then be surprised when people stop having to correct you.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

the bottom line is that the facts you used to make your argument were inaccurate. and at 36300, the cr already comes with a hard top so by his standards, its still not a 40k car. i suggest you just start over. use fact that correlate to what happens in the real world and then be surprised when people stop having to correct you.

The bottom line is that people like yourself could say, "oh you must have misremebered, let me reclarify the facts for you. Here:"

But no, some people need to paint some sort of nefarious intent to make mountains out of irrelevant molehills to give weight to their internet opinions (to defend their beloved car) even when they make zero fucking difference to any material argument. Small minds want to attack absolute minutiae like little knibbling e-Pirahna when you've already missed the whole fucking boat. It's like a short sighted and narrow minded General who threw all his men to take a hill but lost the whole war and was proud of it.

Ask yourself what was so important for ZDAn to fucking bitch and moan incessantly about such triviality and deliberately ignore any of my attempt to explain a damn thing to him. Something ego driven. I don't think correcting facts as you say in any decent way with any decent intent involves a sledgehammer and finger pointing over multiple forum pages.

I also suggest you mind your own business fatoni. Your experience w/ being correct is minimal at best.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

And no amount of selective editing and regurgitating minutiae makes your point relevant to anything substantive here at all.

I selectively edit for clarity, you do it as blatantly obvious obfuscation.

The $35K S2000 w/ hardtop is close

Hardtop was never an option on any S2000. It was an *accessory* that not too many bothered with. May as well throw in the $2k worth of accessories for the FR-S and make it $27k, no? No problem to end up with a $30k BRZ Limited with a handful of accessories...

Andand $38K S2000 w/ a hardtop is certainly a $40K car even by your standards.

No, that limited-appeal and irrelevant-to-our-discussion model came with the hardtop included.

Yes you selectively edited the top of the line S2000 and that I was shopping hardtopped models.

Again, hardtop was never an option but an accessory. The only "hardtopped model" came with it included in its inflated price. Most didn't consider the CR to be the more desirable model because it was de-contented (no leather, no convertible top, no A/C or stereo), you paid more for less (except you did get the hardtop). And if you want to consider top-of-the-line models, why aren't we talking about the $28-29k "10 Series" FR-S?

Realistically, the BRZ Limited is most comparable to the S2000. The S2000 definitely was more expensive, but you exaggerated this point to an extreme degree when you said:

Don't forget, the S2000 cost around $40K in 2000 while the 86 is around $25K in 2013.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I selectively edit for clarity, you do it as blatantly obvious obfuscation.

You must be joking. Clarity from removal of data, uh huh. Nice standard for an engineer.

Hardtop was never an option on any S2000. It was an *accessory* that not too many bothered with. May as well throw in the $2k worth of accessories for the FR-S and make it $27k, no? No problem to end up with a $30k BRZ Limited with a handful of accessories...

Oh wow, a distinction w/o a difference. Another insane victory in your perverse sense of logic. Yes, let's add a hardtop to the FRS. Really grabbing huh.

No, that limited-appeal and irrelevant-to-our-discussion model came with the hardtop included.

Again, hardtop was never an option but an accessory. The only "hardtopped model" came with it included in its inflated price. Most didn't consider the CR to be the more desirable model because it was de-contented (no leather, no convertible top, no A/C or stereo), you paid more for less (except you did get the hardtop). And if you want to consider top-of-the-line models, why aren't we talking about the $28-29k "10 Series" FR-S?

Realistically, the BRZ Limited is most comparable to the S2000. The S2000 definitely was more expensive, but you exaggerated this point to an extreme degree when you said:

OK, let's do that to make everyone happy. BRZ limited or 10 series versus CR. $28/29K versus $37K. Or lets take base models $25K versus $32K in year 2000 dollars. So now what exactly is your fucking point again?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

The bottom line is that people like yourself could say, "oh you must have misremebered, let me reclarify the facts for you. Here:"

But no, some people need to paint some sort of nefarious intent to make mountains out of irrelevant molehills to give weight to their internet opinions (to defend their beloved car) even when they make zero fucking difference to any material argument. Small minds want to attack absolute minutiae like little knibbling e-Pirahna when you've already missed the whole fucking boat. It's like a short sighted and narrow minded General who threw all his men to take a hill but lost the whole war and was proud of it.

Ask yourself what was so important for ZDAn to fucking bitch and moan incessantly about such triviality and deliberately ignore any of my attempt to explain a damn thing to him. Something ego driven. I don't think correcting facts as you say in any decent way with any decent intent involves a sledgehammer and finger pointing over multiple forum pages.

I also suggest you mind your own business fatoni. Your experience w/ being correct is minimal at best.

i dont care what zdan thinks is important. what i do care about, is that when he has a point to make, he uses facts to support his claim and follows information where ever it leads him all without randomly changing the paradigm in order to shift the focus from his mistakes.