1st time Manual Driver

[JohnAyySays]

Originally Posted by boredom.is.me

You don't sound like you know where your engine rpm should be at varying speeds. Holding it at 4000 rpm isn't rev matching. What I do: after blipping the throttle, I release the clutch right as the engine rpm gets to where it would be at the speed I'm traveling. All it takes is a quick jab on the throttle.

As far as "picking up speed", what else could be faster than putting it in it's power band? You downshift revmatch to put your engine where you know it will make the power you want/need.

I don't mean to be rude, but you just aren't as familiar with the car as much as you think you are.

Also revmatching probably puts far less abuse on your clutch then most other actions (taking off, clutch kick, clutch drop...etc).

All opinions are welcomed! What I meant was I don't hold it at 4000 rpm, I can't just the blip the throttle. When I blip the throttle meaning it is a quick "jab" all the way I'm not getting the correct rev's I need to get a smooth downshift. If I do a quick jab like everyone says my car will jerk because it wasn't at the right RPM because I didn't give it enough revs. Like I have tried at neutral on the sensitivity of my acceleration and doing a quick jab of the throttle only gives me 1500-2000 RPM when at times I need more than that and when I do thats when I have to "hold" down the acceleration more so the car gets the RPM I need for a smooth downshift. Am I making any sense? Lol sorry if i'm not but please let me know!

[boredom.is.me]

Originally Posted by JohnAyySays

All opinions are welcomed! What I meant was I don't hold it at 4000 rpm, I can't just the blip the throttle. When I blip the throttle meaning it is a quick "jab" all the way I'm not getting the correct rev's I need to get a smooth downshift. If I do a quick jab like everyone says my car will jerk because it wasn't at the right RPM because I didn't give it enough revs. Like I have tried at neutral on the sensitivity of my acceleration and doing a quick jab of the throttle only gives me 1500-2000 RPM when at times I need more than that and when I do thats when I have to "hold" down the acceleration more so the car gets the RPM I need for a smooth downshift. Am I making any sense? Lol sorry if i'm not but please let me know!

Try rolling onto to the throttle like what whaap was saying.

[JohnAyySays]

Originally Posted by Mad1723

Rev matching is actually simple. The point is to stab the throttle, just enough so your RPM climbs to about what your RPM should be at that speed in the lower gear you are trying to engage.

If you go from 3000 RPM to a lower gear, your lower gear should be around 3500-3700, give or take, depending on the gear. Give a jab of throttle just after you have engaged the clutch, BEFORE THE ENGINE STARTS DROPPING RPM.

I put it in caps because I think that's where your problem lies. As soon as the clutch is engaged, you must jab the throttle. If you let your RPM drop close to idle, then you will have to hold the throttle to get the RPM back up.

You need to practice this. It's a question of footwork and it ain't easy. I had the same problem when I started driving the car in July. I'm a first time manual user too, but I learned to quickly rev match as this car lurches forward otherwise.

Remember: As soon as you feel the clutch engaging (RPM drops ever so slightly), jab the throttle. Timing will come naturally at some point and your downshifting will be very natural and smooth with a bit of practice.

"I put it in caps because I think that's where your problem lies. As soon as the clutch is engaged, you must jab the throttle. If you let your RPM drop close to idle, then you will have to hold the throttle to get the RPM back up." This is what I am experiencing! So what your saying is I can't let the RPM drop from where it already is correct? I thought I had to have the clutch all the way and THEN blip the throttle because I thought blipping inbetween would be bad for my clutch.

[Hanni_0176]

Originally Posted by JohnAyySays

"I put it in caps because I think that's where your problem lies. As soon as the clutch is engaged, you must jab the throttle. If you let your RPM drop close to idle, then you will have to hold the throttle to get the RPM back up." This is what I am experiencing! So what your saying is I can't let the RPM drop from where it already is correct? I thought I had to have the clutch all the way and THEN blip the throttle because I thought blipping inbetween would be bad for my clutch.

You do have to have the clutch all the way down first. What he is saying is that you need to do the process quicker. Basically, you need to push the clutch down all the way and then immediately blip the throttle. If you wait too long in between when you push the clutch down all the way and blip the throttle, the engine revs will drop all the way down to idle and you'll have to mash the gas pedal down pretty far/hard to get enough revs. The less time it takes to do this motion, the less force you have to apply to the throttle. At the same time though, you have to be shifting the car into gear so that once the revs match, you can release the clutch. If you wait too long in between the time you blip the throttle and then release the clutch, the revs will also drop well below your targeted rpm (unless you over rev to compensate).

The easiest way to do this is to push the clutch all the way down, and blip the throttle while you are shifting it to the correct gear. If you time it right, it should be a pretty seamless motion.

Rev-matching just takes some getting used to. However, if you're saying that there is a lag between when you blip the throttle and when the engine revs, that's not normal. The throttle response should be near instantaneous, from the time you press on the gas pedal, to the time the engine begins increasing in rpm. If what you mean is that the rpm's climb slowly... well, you just need to blip the throttle harder (push the gas pedal down farther).

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by JohnAyySays

"If you let your RPM drop close to idle, then you will have to hold the throttle to get the RPM back up." This is what I am experiencing!

You're doing it too SLOW. In slow motion, the revs drop to idle.

If I demonstrate how to pitch a baseball in slow motion ... the ball will fall not far in front of me. Heh. Doesn't work right, does it? Done fast, the ball hits the catcher's mitt for a strike.

Done fast, in real time, the revs barely drop, and a quick blip of the throttle raises the revs the necessary 600-1200 rpm.

I thought I had to have the clutch all the way and THEN blip the throttle because I thought blipping inbetween would be bad for my clutch.

You thought right.

Blip the throttle, bringing up your ENGINE revs (the flywheel), WHEN THE CLUTCH IS FULLY DISENGAGED. That means when the clutch pedal is depressed to the floor. That means when the clutch disk is no longer in contact with the engine flywheel. Also said "to de-clutch."

One employs the clutch pedal to DISengage the clutch (disk) from the flywheel. "DE-CLUTCH"

The left pedal disengages the clutch disk from the engine flywheel.


De-clutch, shift, blip, engage clutch.



I can do this SEAMLESSLY. So can you.


Heel-and-toe "simply" adds simultaneous braking to the mix. Heh.


Watch the video of the S2000 driver. After that video is another one by EBC racing(?) of a guy in a right-hand drive S2000. It, too, shows a foot camera that may be better to watch.

Note that both S2000 drivers employ their heel to blip the throttle. I do the same on my own S2000. The pedal setup encourages that method.

However, on my BRZ I employ the right side of my foot to blip the throttle rather than my heel. The standard pedal setup encourages that for me.

Watch both of those videos again, and again, and again…

Then do it again, but just LISTEN.

That is easier than trying to understand someone trying to WRITE a description of the action.

Listen…

Note, too, that when I am changing down, I am NEVER looking at the tach. My eyes are occupied with the upcoming corner, for example.

Practice the action with the car turned off. When you have your hands/feet coordinated reasonably, try it on a deserted road. Do not practice this in traffic lest you risk either braking too hard and the guy behind you slams into your trunk, or braking too little and you slam into the car in front of you.

Practice alone, away from others.

What initially seems near impossible will soon become easy and smooth.

People whine piteously about how impossibly difficult it is to learn to do a proper handbrake start on a hill, too. That's ridiculous. Effort gets results.

I strive for SEAMLESS SHIFTS, both up and down; as a passenger, you can HEAR me shift, but you cannot FEEL me shift in normal driving. But, even in hard performance driving, you will be unable to FEEL me change down. Change UP, yes, because of the interruption in power and acceleration forces. But, down? No.

When you can do that, you'll know you've mastered it.

[JohnAyySays]

Originally Posted by Porsche

You're doing it too SLOW. In slow motion, the revs drop to idle.

If I demonstrate how to pitch a baseball in slow motion ... the ball will fall not far in front of me. Heh. Doesn't work right, does it? Done fast, the ball hits the catcher's mitt for a strike.

Done fast, in real time, the revs barely drop, and a quick blip of the throttle raises the revs the necessary 600-1200 rpm.





You thought right.

Blip the throttle, bringing up your ENGINE revs (the flywheel), WHEN THE CLUTCH IS FULLY DISENGAGED. That means when the clutch pedal is depressed to the floor. That means when the clutch disk is no longer in contact with the engine flywheel. Also said "to de-clutch."

One employs the clutch pedal to DISengage the clutch (disk) from the flywheel. "DE-CLUTCH"

The left pedal disengages the clutch disk from the engine flywheel.


De-clutch, shift, blip, engage clutch.



I can do this SEAMLESSLY. So can you.


Heel-and-toe "simply" adds simultaneous braking to the mix. Heh.


Watch the video of the S2000 driver. After that video is another one by EBC racing(?) of a guy in a right-hand drive S2000. It, too, shows a foot camera that may be better to watch.

Note that both S2000 drivers employ their heel to blip the throttle. I do the same on my own S2000. The pedal setup encourages that method.

However, on my BRZ I employ the right side of my foot to blip the throttle rather than my heel. The standard pedal setup encourages that for me.

Watch both of those videos again, and again, and again…

Then do it again, but just LISTEN.

That is easier than trying to understand someone trying to WRITE a description of the action.

Listen…

Note, too, that when I am changing down, I am NEVER looking at the tach. My eyes are occupied with the upcoming corner, for example.

Practice the action with the car turned off. When you have your hands/feet coordinated reasonably, try it on a deserted road. Do not practice this in traffic lest you risk either braking too hard and the guy behind you slams into your trunk, or braking too little and you slam into the car in front of you.

Practice alone, away from others.

What initially seems near impossible will soon become easy and smooth.

People whine piteously about how impossibly difficult it is to learn to do a proper handbrake start on a hill, too. That's ridiculous. Effort gets results.

I strive for SEAMLESS SHIFTS, both up and down; as a passenger, you can HEAR me shift, but you cannot FEEL me shift in normal driving. But, even in hard performance driving, you will be unable to FEEL me change down. Change UP, yes, because of the interruption in power and acceleration forces. But, down? No.

When you can do that, you'll know you've mastered it.

Thank you for clearing things up! Really appreciate it! I will definitely try this method out. I'm pretty sure my problem was the revs did drop a lot because I was too slow

[mid_life_crisis]

I have never had a car that did auto-revmatching. I have a question on how it is supposed to work. When driving a manual and doing a downshift, I press on the gas to manually match the revs to the speed and new gear choice. If I downshift one gear (4 > 3, say), I raise the rpm less than if I am downshifting two gears (4 > 2, for example). That much is obvious.
For auto revmatching to work, it would need to do the same thing, which means it needs to know what gear you are going to. So shouldn't your sequence be:
1) Step on clutch pedal
2) Shift
3) Blip throttle
4) Give car a second to match rpm to speed and new gear choice
5) Let up clutch

Acceleration is a whole nother animal. You should not need help with that.

[whaap]

Originally Posted by JohnAyySays

If I do a quick jab like everyone says

Not 'everyone'.

[wparsons]

One big correction, when you press the clutch pedal you are DIS-ENGAGING the clutch, not engaging it. When you let the pedal out you're engaging it.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by mid_life_crisis

I have never had a car that did auto-revmatching. I have a question on how it is supposed to work. When driving a manual and doing a downshift, I press on the gas to manually match the revs to the speed and new gear choice. If I downshift one gear (4 > 3, say), I raise the rpm less than if I am downshifting two gears (4 > 2, for example). That much is obvious.
For auto revmatching to work, it would need to do the same thing, which means it needs to know what gear you are going to.

I've never driven one of those, so I cannot say for certain, but your logic is impeccable; the ECU needs to know WHICH gear has been selected in order to correctly match revs.

So shouldn't your sequence be:
1) Step on clutch pedal
2) Shift
3) Blip throttle
4) Give car a second to match rpm to speed and new gear choice
5) Let up clutch

What make and model of vehicle are you referring to?

Your description indicates a manual transmission car. But, the BRZ/FR-S MT does NOT have auto-rev matching. Whereas, the automatic model DOES have auto-rev matching when downshifting. It does not have a clutch, of course. Therefore, your description above does not apply to our cars, either MT or AT.

Did that make sense?

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by whaap

It certainly makes changing gears a much smoother maneuver than just stabbing or blipping the throttle which is certainly better than doing nothing at all.

Whaap, old buddy...

Watch those two videos noted in this thread. Those will show you what we're talking about when we refer to heel-and-toe and rev matching. Yeah, I know the OP didn't specifically ask about this, but he'll be there soon.

You've always seemed a bit puzzled by this.

Note how fast they're rushing down into corners. There's simply no time to slowly drag the engine up to road wheel speed by slipping the clutch when changing down. Rapid and sudden clutch engagement would lock up the rear wheels. You do not want to do that; the rear will want to overtake the front just as you're trying to turn into the corner. You'll be unhappy.

Note that there is no TIME to brake and change down one or more gears as SEPARATE, distinct steps. It must all be done simultaneously, else you'll run out of time and run out of ROAD. You MUST get changed down through the box, with the car stable, BEFORE it's time to turn in to the corner.

Watching those two videos should answer your questions and clear up the puzzlement for you.


P.S. Your description of rev matching is perfectly valid and works well for just easing around, when time is unimportant. When engaged in spirited driving, time becomes critically important. As time passes ... DISTANCE is being eaten up and that corner is upon you RIGHT NOW! Watch the videos carefully. You'll see.

I hope this helps.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by JohnAyySays

Thank you for clearing things up! Really appreciate it!

You're welcome, John.

Practice makes perfect, right?

Have fun with your wonderful new car!

[whaap]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Whaap, old buddy...

Watch those two videos noted in this thread. Those will show you what we're talking about when we refer to heel-and-toe and rev matching. Yeah, I know the OP didn't specifically ask about this, but he'll be there soon.

You've always seemed a bit puzzled by this.

Note how fast they're rushing down into corners. There's simply no time to slowly drag the engine up to road wheel speed by slipping the clutch when changing down. Rapid and sudden clutch engagement would lock up the rear wheels. You do not want to do that; the rear will want to overtake the front just as you're trying to turn into the corner. You'll be unhappy.

Note that there is no TIME to brake and change down one or more gears as SEPARATE, distinct steps. It must all be done simultaneously, else you'll run out of time and run out of ROAD. You MUST get changed down through the box, with the car stable, BEFORE it's time to turn in to the corner.

Watching those two videos should answer your questions and clear up the puzzlement for you.


P.S. Your description of rev matching is perfectly valid and works well for just easing around, when time is unimportant. When engaged in spirited driving, time becomes critically important. As time passes ... DISTANCE is being eaten up and that corner is upon you RIGHT NOW! Watch the videos carefully. You'll see.

I hope this helps.

Sorry for any misunderstanding. I have no questions. I know what heel-toe is. After all I am a NASCAR fan (lol). For my 'genteel' style of driving I have no need for heel-toe driving.

[Toxicmilk45]

Hey I just got my frs around June 2013 and can any of you guys tell me if there's really any difference in the way I downshift compared to you guys? My brother taught me and I never really looked into any other ways.
The steps when I downshift are
1) push clutch in and get into neutral
2) let clutch out while in neutral
3) blip throttle while clutch pedal is let out
4) clutch in then go into gear before rpms drop too much then clutch out