what's the difference between twin screw, centrifugal, single turbo and twin turbo?

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I don't think it would cost THAT much for a track-worthy FI setup. PM me if you want to go over some figures and what we recommend. We've played with more than a few FI cars already, and know what works.

Also, some clarification. Our 2:00 at Buttonwillow is on a 100% stock engine with California 91 octane. All OEM cats were in place, no aftermarket intake, or midpipes. All we had was an axleback (and we make zero claims that it has power gains).

PM'ed thanks

[SillySaxon]

Originally Posted by Tansey86

Turbo wins in pretty much every aspect aside from price and install time.

I dunno, look at the Vortech SC price compared to the AVO Turbo kit, seems like its the SCs that are most expensive right now for this car

[regal]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I don't think it would cost THAT much for a track-worthy FI setup. PM me if you want to go over some figures and what we recommend. We've played with more than a few FI cars already, and know what works.

I think with this car there is a big difference between a 220hp Avo/Greddy base turbo kit and a 275-300 hp upgraded kit.

In other boosted cars 75 hp isn't a huge difference but this car I think has a steep gradiant $/HP.

But I'm optimistic that a modest 220ish hp FI kit doesn't require many other upgrades for reliability. And really the way Toyota rates this engine, 225 whp would be ~300hp in the sales brochure, that's a significant upgrade and plenty for the street.

[NomoreNA]

Originally Posted by Hanni_0176

Why is a twin turbo worthless on our platform? From what I've read about boxer engines, wouldn't a twin scroll design provide the greatest efficiency with minimal lag while retaining good top end power?

I'm not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to auto mechanics, so I'm not saying you're wrong. I guess what I'm asking is, can you explain why twin turbos are worthless on our platform?

First off twin scroll is different than twin turbo. I am running a twin scroll single turbo on my personal car and yes it is very efficient. The remark about twin turbo being worthless on this platform was just a joke. It could be very effective on this platform, but no one has taken the time to fab one yet which is what I am working on now.

[Team STILLEN]

Originally Posted by nonicname

twin screws for our cars are made by sketchy companies that lie a lot and have terrible customer service

I am curious if there is a decent amount of interest in a Twin Screw/Roots Style/Positive Displacement style supercharger from a reputable company. I know there are some options out there already but this quote caught my attention.

[Hanni_0176]

Originally Posted by Team STILLEN

I am curious if there is a decent amount of interest in a Twin Screw/Roots Style/Positive Displacement style supercharger from a reputable company. I know there are some options out there already but this quote caught my attention.

Not sure how many people are interested in twin screws, but I know I'd be interested in seeing more than one company developing a twin scroll turbo kit.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Team STILLEN

but this quote caught my attention.

That guy was banned for being a troller..

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by Brian@Vortech

While you did state it was your opinion, there are other very noteworthy parts to consider.

Centrifugals may seem to you like it is not the best option, however a great deal of the equation is being skipped over entirely.

Centrifugal superchargers have many of the benefits of a turbo, without the enormous heat concerns of a turbo. If you don't generate the heat in the first place, you don't have to go to great lengths to get rid of it. Plus, without the charge cooler being a safety precaution, it becomes an additional add-on for increased power gains, with IATs coming in relatively close to ambient on a consistent, stable basis in most applications (and we are not just talking about iced down setups on a perfectly controlled dyno situation). In addition, while a centrifugal compressor may have some parasitic loss due to being belt driven, the losses are drastically less than any positive displacement unit. The amount of horsepower it takes to spin a Vortech is nominal compared to any roots or twin-screw. This is one of the main reasons we have display units with drive pulleys on them at all the shows and events we attend. People comment all the time once they see (and feel) first hand that the effort to turn the compressor is quite low, practically free spinning...especially compared to any other supercharger.

Adiabatic efficiency also comes strongly into play when comparing types of superchargers. No positive displacement compressor can ever come close to the efficiency of a centrifugal, especially the 78% (or higher) efficiency of the current line of Vortech units. Most pd blowers come in at an abysmal 50-60% efficiency, which comes right back to heat and parasitic loss. With a 50% adiabatic efficiency, literally HALF of the work going into turning the compressor is being converted directly into heat, and (as everyone knows) cooler air makes more power.

Other things to consider are possibility CARB approval, (in some cases) underhood packaging, and (as stated) ease of installation.

The options cannot be so quickly dismissed. They all have their merits and detractors.

Sadly this is one of the most erroneous posts I have ever had to read, Are you claiming your product overcomes the second law of thermal dynamics?
Heat is generated in any compression of fluid. I can tell you for certain (without a product to misrepresent for profit) that your compressor is not drastically more efficient than garrett's compressor impellers are. Since you seem to have forgotten that you supply an intercooler with your kit for this car, and numerous dynos have shown greater power at the same boost on turbo setups. You start off trying to bash turbos for their efficiency, then bait and switch to bashing PD blowers, do you think FT86club members are that stupid or have you drank too much of your own Kool-Aid.

I would appreciate if you clarified your BS so that the rest of the world doesn't have to spend years re-educating the BS out of people who felt "informed" after reading your misconceptions.

A well sized non-china turbo will always be more efficient than your S/C's,

Your product has merits, packaging, ease of install, less lowend torque (when that is desirable) but there is a reason people claim consistently that it has all the drawbacks of a turbo, and all the drawbacks of a PD S/C...because it is true...when was the last time you told someone turning your effortless S/C how much faster it had to be spun to create the same net flow as a PD S/C...that's rhetorical, i would never expect you to point out that it spins so easy because they aren't actually compressing air at hand turn speeds...unlike a PD S/C

thanks for the laugh,

[circuithero]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I don't think it would cost THAT much for a track-worthy FI setup. PM me if you want to go over some figures and what we recommend. We've played with more than a few FI cars already, and know what works.

Also, some clarification. Our 2:00 at Buttonwillow is on a 100% stock engine with California 91 octane. All OEM cats were in place, no aftermarket intake, or midpipes. All we had was an axleback (and we make zero claims that it has power gains).

I am not sure that a nice shot of sideways action in a car that has at least 15k in it supports your argument very well. I would love to hear some of your findings publicly as I am still inclined to disagree with you. Yes it will cost that much to make a reliable, DD capable, track car.

Some very rough numbers:
Turbo + Tuning: 5-7k
Clutch: 0.5k
Cooling: 0.7-1k
Brakes: 2k

Now this is the absolute barebones you could run and not even taking into account possible labor for people that are not as hands on.

That means stock exhaust with added backpressure on the turbo, no gauges to watch anything, stock suspension which would be far from ideal at speeds the turbo could achieve and no aero to further add to the difficulty at higher speeds (all of which an NA car could use too, but there is easily a 10k difference all said and done). Do you need brakes? You definitely do with the added power, you could probably get away with dedicated pads and rebuild the calipers every other season on NA. Also with additional heat and speed you will simply wear parts out faster, consumables will go up and maintenance will at least double.

Its different for a privateer with no shop backing and that also wants to drive his car. Not to mention the car WILL need sorting time and you WILL run into problems that will require additional $$$, modification and downtime. VCMC Turbo FRS is local to me and I assure you it was not just plug and play, they had their share of problems, sorting and we are talking about $$$, shop backing and talented experienced guys. Its not like that car was tuned to the ragged edge either. For the street? Sure, I'd say get it tuned and have a blast. But don't tell me you can get away with the same set up and run 8 trackdays every summer for 20 minute sessions, thats an unrealistic expectation.

S2k guys (which you are familiar with I believe) have been boosting TT cars for years and still have constant problems for the fast guys at track. The ones who don't have dropped megacubic dollars in them and still refresh motors. Track + aftermarket FI = $$$$, that is all I have been trying to convey.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by circuithero

I am not sure that a nice shot of sideways action in a car that has at least 15k in it supports your argument very well. I would love to hear some of your findings publicly as I am still inclined to disagree with you. Yes it will cost that much to make a reliable, DD capable, track car.

Some very rough numbers:
Turbo + Tuning: 5-7k
Clutch: 0.5k
Cooling: 0.7-1k
Brakes: 2k

Now this is the absolute barebones you could run and not even taking into account possible labor for people that are not as hands on.

That means stock exhaust with added backpressure on the turbo, no gauges to watch anything, stock suspension which would be far from ideal at speeds the turbo could achieve and no aero to further add to the difficulty at higher speeds (all of which an NA car could use too, but there is easily a 10k difference all said and done). Do you need brakes? You definitely do with the added power, you could probably get away with dedicated pads and rebuild the calipers every other season on NA. Also with additional heat and speed you will simply wear parts out faster, consumables will go up and maintenance will at least double.

Its different for a privateer with no shop backing and that also wants to drive his car. Not to mention the car WILL need sorting time and you WILL run into problems that will require additional $$$, modification and downtime. VCMC Turbo FRS is local to me and I assure you it was not just plug and play, they had their share of problems, sorting and we are talking about $$$, shop backing and talented experienced guys. Its not like that car was tuned to the ragged edge either. For the street? Sure, I'd say get it tuned and have a blast. But don't tell me you can get away with the same set up and run 8 trackdays every summer for 20 minute sessions, thats an unrealistic expectation.

S2k guys (which you are familiar with I believe) have been boosting TT cars for years and still have constant problems for the fast guys at track. The ones who don't have dropped megacubic dollars in them and still refresh motors. Track + aftermarket FI = $$$$, that is all I have been trying to convey.

How about this?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU4Sa3RCCV4"]Willow Springs International Raceway BRZ/FRS/GT86 lap record 1:30.778 - YouTube[/ame]

An effective FI solution for this car, assuming you're not looking for asinine power levels, would be a kit, tuning solution, tune, cooling, and brake ducts. It's the lowest up-front cost, although not the lowest long-term cost. You don't need an exhaust, etc. Better yet, you can further reduce your costs by getting a kit that comes WITH a proper tune (yes they're coming).

CSG has two FI S2ks, one of which is running on the STOCK exhaust, and neither has had any of the issues the FI S2ks claim to have. I can assure you we're pushing the cars. Oh, and ALL of these cars, including Ted's BRZ in the video above, are tuned to run on CA 91 octane.

[circuithero]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

How about this?

An effective FI solution for this car, assuming you're not looking for asinine power levels, would be a kit, tuning solution, tune, cooling, and brake ducts. It's the lowest up-front cost, although not the lowest long-term cost. You don't need an exhaust, etc. Better yet, you can further reduce your costs by getting a kit that comes WITH a proper tune (yes they're coming).

CSG has two FI S2ks, one of which is running on the STOCK exhaust, and neither has had any of the issues the FI S2ks claim to have. I can assure you we're pushing the cars. Oh, and ALL of these cars, including Ted's BRZ in the video above, are tuned to run on CA 91 octane.

First let me say that I respect you as a vendor immensely and this is not personal or an attack. My personal experience and opinion is that you will need 10k+ for a DD friendly, reliable, track capable FI setup; you disagree but have yet to support your argument properly. Posting a very quick lap, of a car that is modified much more than your recommended minimum is about as relevant as me posting a video of my dog doing laps in the back yard.

I agree that an exhaust is not needed. However I disagree that you can get away with just brake ducts, on any fast track an experienced driver will cook the stock fronts even with race pads (due to the added power). Also you will need a clutch. And you will eventually run into problems due to the heat, higher heat thermal cycling will wear parts out, as will the additional torque.

Again, boost and track is expensive no way about it. Nothing wrong with it either. Casual track rats may get away with less. IMO if you want to develop yourself as a driver power is not required at all, not to mention a properly set up car on coils and stock power will be just as fast or faster then boosted car with most of the $$ tied up in the engine. The same car will also be more reliable and use less consumables at the expense of torque thrills. You will benefit much more with analyzing data acquisition data then pouring over Ecutek logs. If budget is not in the question then go ahead and boost but be realistic about it, s'all.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by circuithero

First let me say that I respect you as a vendor immensely and this is not personal or an attack. My personal experience and opinion is that you will need 10k+ for a DD friendly, reliable, track capable FI setup; you disagree but have yet to support your argument properly. Posting a very quick lap, of a car that is modified much more than your recommended minimum is about as relevant as me posting a video of my dog doing laps in the back yard.

I agree that an exhaust is not needed. However I disagree that you can get away with just brake ducts, on any fast track an experienced driver will cook the stock fronts even with race pads (due to the added power). Also you will need a clutch. And you will eventually run into problems due to the heat, higher heat thermal cycling will wear parts out, as will the additional torque.

Again, boost and track is expensive no way about it. Nothing wrong with it either. Casual track rats may get away with less. IMO if you want to develop yourself as a driver power is not required at all, not to mention a properly set up car on coils and stock power will be just as fast or faster then boosted car with most of the $$ tied up in the engine. The same car will also be more reliable and use less consumables at the expense of torque thrills. You will benefit much more with analyzing data acquisition data then pouring over Ecutek logs. If budget is not in the question then go ahead and boost but be realistic about it, s'all.

How much power are you trying to add exactly? I'm talking strictly bolt-on levels of power for the FR-S/BRZ. The reason I say that it's easily doable is because it's already been proven.

The Jackson Racing supercharger was tested on multiple cars, and they were all purposely left 100% stock EXCEPT for the kit (and brake pads + tires). 2:01 at Buttonwillow 13CW with nothing but that is a pretty friggin fast lap; Oscar Jackson Jr. is no slouch when it comes to driving.

CSG_David's car is another example. If you're looking strictly at power and supporting mods, he's using a bolt-on Rotrex supercharger kit, with ZERO additional cooling mods, and ZERO additional supporting mods (exhaust, stronger tranmission, differential, etc.). The S2k uses Civic sized brakes, while the FR-S/BRZ uses WRX sized brakes. There are ZERO brake mods on his car. We've pushed his car hard, with ZERO issues. We do, however, have an aftermarket tune, because we wanted MORE power than the bolt-on levels. David's car makes 385hp. Yes, it's on the stock exhaust piping, stock header, etc.; the car sounds and looks like a stock S2000 CR.

A lot of this has to do with picking the properly FI for a given application, and on the S2ks, we specifically chose our setups based on the fact that the cars WILL see track time, and they WILL be running for 20+ minutes of sustained WOT. This is precisely why we've chosen the direction of our BRZ's FI for 2014.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by Team STILLEN

I am curious if there is a decent amount of interest in a Twin Screw/Roots Style/Positive Displacement style supercharger from a reputable company. I know there are some options out there already but this quote caught my attention.

Originally Posted by Hanni_0176

Not sure how many people are interested in twin screws, but I know I'd be interested in seeing more than one company developing a twin scroll turbo kit.

Plenty of people are interested in twin-screw superchargers, just take a look at all the Innovate kits installed by members of this forum.

Sprintex/Cusco/Bullet/Innovate are plenty reputable. The person who made the comment @Team STILLEN responded to was a trolled and banned as such.

[Hanni_0176]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

Plenty of people are interested in twin-screw superchargers, just take a look at all the Innovate kits installed by members of this forum.

Sprintex/Cusco/Bullet/Innovate are plenty reputable. The person who made the comment @Team STILLEN responded to was a trolled and banned as such.

I didn't say there wasn't people interested in twin screws, I said I didn't know how many were. You took what I said completely out of context. All I was trying to say to the vendor who asked, was that if he is gauging customer interest in products, I'd be interested in a twin scroll turbo... and since there is only one known company developing one right now, it's basically an untapped market... i.e, lots of potential sales to be made there.