fun comparison of the day: the BRZ is the new BMW E30 M3

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Driven one? Drivers car.. in spades.

I know that. But I'm pretty sure the BRZ is a drivers car also and IMO looks more like a sports car than the boxy-sedanlike/coupe look of the e30. Also a modern interior is much better.

[KeepGuessing]

So you take a BMW E30 m3..

Take away all the character, originality, and charisma and overall FEEL (still yet to see a car rival the e30 M3 in terms of feel in a OEM application)

Turn the high revving strong as a mother f' inline 4 Engine that was developed from a purpose built race bread inline 6......Into a ..Box 4...

And you get a Toyota..


The BEST part of the "counter point" to this car ...The "Omg it's boxy and ugly" is hilarious coming from a crowd in support of the superlative SON of this angular door stop..

[SUB-FT86]

If you coming at me with your post then I should warn you that I dislike the AE86's looks and most cars made around that time. The looks of the AS1 was inspired by the 2000gt and the LFA and not the AE86.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

So you take a BMW E30 m3..

Take away all the character, originality, and charisma and overall FEEL (still yet to see a car rival the e30 M3 in terms of feel in a OEM application)

Turn the high revving strong as a mother f' inline 4 Engine that was developed from a purpose built race bread inline 6......Into a ..Box 4...

And you get a Toyota..


The BEST part of the "counter point" to this car ...The "Omg it's boxy and ugly" is hilarious coming from a crowd in support of the superlative SON of this angular door stop...

Lonely over on the bmw forums, eh? Why are you even here? You offer nothing constructive and it is clear that you can't get over stroking your antique...

BTW I love the E30 M3, but I sure don't like the BMW owners that I meet...

[Max Schnell]

Give BMW some credit where it is due. BMW had a car over 20 years ago that had the attributes that we are just now figuring out once more is what makes a great sports type car. Looks are subjective. 20 years ago as compared to what were looker cars I'd take the M3 over most of the rest of the boxy crap those days had to offer.

Sadly BMW M itself is moving away from lightweight cars with perfect balance and great engines with only the occasional special edition super expensive CSL type package to remind you of what BMW Ms really should be about. Hopefully they will get back on track someday soon.

All that being said you cannot deny progress. 20+ years of new technology later the FRS/BRZ should be able to beat the E30 M3 even though the specs are close. There is no shame for the E30 M3 or the FRS/BRZ in this comparo no matter what the eventual performance numbers are.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

So you take a BMW E30 m3..

Take away all the character, originality, and charisma and overall FEEL (still yet to see a car rival the e30 M3 in terms of feel in a OEM application)

If you haven't driven the FT86, it's presumptuous to compare its character, charisma, and feel to the E30.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

Turn the high revving strong as a mother f' inline 4 Engine that was developed from a purpose built race bread inline 6......Into a ..Box 4...

It's ironic that you praised the E30's I4 for its strength and high revving nature while in the same sentence you criticized the FT86 for having an H4 that also has a high revving nature (and boxers are widely-recognized as durable).

Even if the FA20 doesn't stand up to the S14, the E30 M3 started at ~$34k in the late 1980s (~$60-65k in today's dollars). They weren't big sellers and could be had for as little as ~$28k, but that's still ~$50-53k in today's dollars.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

And you get a Toyota..

Along with its lower MSRP, insurance, and maintenance cost.

IMO, the E30 was BMW's pinnacle. At half the adjusted-for-inflation-cost, the FT86 ought to offer similar dynamics (with less low-end, but as-good-if-not-even-better steering, shifting, handling, tossibility, and road feel). Never mind that it'll probably also be more fuel efficient.

[KeepGuessing]

Originally Posted by Deslock

If you haven't driven the FT86, it's presumptuous to compare its character, charisma, and feel to the E30.

it's not presumptuous however to compare a car created in an era where it was able to compete in a plethora of venues all while meeting standard needs and conveniences for a wonderful price. Face it, in this day and age the FT86's motorsports applications will be quite limited in comparison, this instantaneously limiting it's ability to make a "name for itself" like ANY of the cars from the e30's era, AE86 including.

It's ironic that you praised the E30's I4 for its strength and high revving nature while in the same sentence you criticized the FT86 for having an H4 that also has a high revving nature (and boxers are widely-recognized as durable).

There are plenty of "widely romanticized" problematic boxer engines..Subaru's being a shining star at the top of the "problem boxer" list. Yes they have strong sleeves and high HP numbers, but they also have failing headgaskets and poorly constructed water pumps, then there's entire models which were deemed "s-boxes" because of their engine choice (that being the Corvair)

Yes Boxers are reliable, but comparing an entire engine configuration to a particular engine is only going to leave giant opportunities for the downside of the configuration to shine through.

Even if the FA20 doesn't stand up to the S14, the E30 M3 started at ~$34k in the late 1980s (~$60-65k in today's dollars). They weren't big sellers and could be had for as little as ~$28k, but that's still ~$50-53k in today's dollars.

Yes it is, however you have to factor in what was standard in the car at the time and how that factored into comparative costs. Then construction methods and how they've improved through the time (let's not forget the simple inclusion of an aluminum chassis is the primary reason the NSX's price started north of 100,000) Now 19,000 dollar cars come with similar construction.

so the whole "it's 50k now" doesn't stand to well, or do you forget that less than 5 years ago 42" LCD TV's were selling for north of 1,000 dollars..Now can be had for sub 500 at megalomarts.

Along with its lower MSRP, insurance, and maintenance cost.

Really? A Brand new engine will cost less to maintain than a S14? or are you speaking once again comparatives? As in "s14 costs back in the 80's vs FA20 and plastic engine dress of 2012"?

IMO, the E30 was BMW's pinnacle. At half the adjusted-for-inflation-cost, the FT86 ought to offer similar dynamics (with less low-end, but as-good-if-not-even-better steering, shifting, handling, tossibility, and road feel). Never mind that it'll probably also be more fuel efficient.

Getrag 265's shift like butter and thus far the "tossibility" of this car has come into question quite a bit considering it's documented inability to maintain any sort of angle and keep the tires spinning on dry ground.

[torquemada]

http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/01/24/op...r-is-a-toyota/

[merlin2111]

Great article and they are right just as we all were in this thread. Long live the sports car!

[ashtray]

Funny enough, while patiently waiting the BRZ/FRS to go on sale, I've had a wandering eye. My gaze caught that of an E30 M3, and the gears started turning in my head:

M3 - similar specs to FRS, RWD, hp, 0-60, focus on handling, small rear seat.

Price - I can get an M3 TODAY for $15-20k, depending on condition. That's a good $5-10k cheaper than the BRZ - which I'd probably have to make up for at some point with maintenance. But $5-10k buys you some decent maintenance.

Wow-factor: tough call. BRZ is brand new, so it's fresh (though I admit the styling isn't as hot as the concepts). The M3 though is a classic, and I love the looks. I always put myself in the "Malibu PCH" scenario: cruising the PCH, which would turn more heads? (ok, the PCH isn't exactly BH, but you see some fancy cars out for a drive.).

In the end, it's a draw for me! While I can get the M3 now and for cheaper, the BRZ comes with a warranty and zero miles. Both would be a lot of fun to drive. Both would serve the same practicality.

Ultimately, I sit and wait. Two other options tempt my thoughts: the current base WRX hatch ($25k), and the future WRX, due out... 18-24 months? Specs unknown.

My Miata and WRX keep me warm at night for now.

[Dave-ROR]

ash: The BRZ's value will drop like a rock for many years. The E30 M3 with 220k will still sell for 10-20k depending on condition.

I had the chance to buy a white (black int) E30 M3 many years ago while going to college for 15k (had < 50k mileage). I decided against it to be "responsible". I've regretted that decision ever since.

[ashtray]

Dave: stop appealing to my practical side!

White w/ black interior, $15k, and you didn't BUY IT?! I certainly couldn't show that restraint now. Luckily the local M3's I've found have been in silver or red or resprayed black. The silver one looks to be in best shape, but the color just looks so dull on that car. White with some M stripes though... Mmmmm.

[Spaceywilly]

I don't see why you'd go for the M3 unless you were a car collector. Any car that is 22 years old is going to be a nightmare to keep running. I had considered buying an E30 M3 for a while too, but the first rumors of the ft86 burst that bubble pretty quickly. It might be more expensive than a used M3 and not as collectible, but it is infinitely easier to live with.

As far as the 86 being the spiritual successor to the E30, I absolutely agree. The E30 wasn't the fastest car in its day, but it was designed around handling and driver feedback. Over the years each new M3 has added more weight, and lost some of that feel. The 86 is the return to the M3's roots that BMW won't make.

[Dave-ROR]

For a daily driver I'd go BRZ/FR-S. For a weekend only car, it'd be a LOT harder to decide. Honestly, I'd probably go E30 M3 if I found the right car. That car is just more than the sum of it's parts. Too bad the BRZ will replace my DD