FR-S vs. BMW E92 335i

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Exage

I had hoped someone with a Type-S (;you) could explain how different the RSX feels with a K20 that makes decent power from get-go. All my previous attempts to explain the different K20 engines have been sadly unsuccessful.

Imagine hitting 6000 RPM, and suddenly having a 30 horsepower increase in output. And then, the power carries all the way to 8000. That's the difference.

It's similar to comparing a 325 vs 328 (since we're on the topic of bimmers) or a flashed N54/N55 vs non-flashed N54/N55.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by suprachica79

You are clearly more interested in power down low, so why did the ft86 ever appeal to you?

More like mid range to high range.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Mike

Imagine hitting 6000 RPM, and suddenly having a 30 horsepower increase in output. And then, the power carries all the way to 8000. That's the difference.

It's similar to comparing a 325 vs 328 (since we're on the topic of bimmers) or a flashed N54/N55 vs non-flashed N54/N55.

I'm no stranger to the sensation my friend! My XRS has one of the highest cam shift points I know about (@6700). Unfortunately my relay of information is usually down to specifications and number crunching. I think this is the approach I should have used from the start!

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

When you say a "slow car is better to drive fast", you pretty much generalized all slow cars. I know the difference between the two K20 engines and trust me when I say this a extra 40hp over the base isn't impressive to me considering I don't rev that high in the first place.

Originally Posted by suprachica79

You are clearly more interested in power down low, so why did the ft86 ever appeal to you?

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

More like mid range to high range.

I'm sorry but I've succumbed to bewilderment. You probably misinterpreted that post because a severe contradiction has occurred.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Exage

I'm no stranger to the sensation my friend! My XRS has one of the highest cam shift points I know about (@6700). Unfortunately my relay of information is usually down to specifications and number crunching. I think this is the approach I should have used from the start!





I'm sorry but I've succumbed to bewilderment. You probably misinterpreted that post because a severe contradiction has occurred.

Yeah I made a mistake there. I'm a mid range guy(2800-5000 rpms) but I rarely ever go above the mid range. I revved my car to redline twice in 5 years.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Yeah I made a mistake there. I'm a mid range guy(2800-5000 rpms) but I rarely ever go above the mid range. I revved my car to redline twice in 5 years.

LOL 2800rpm is mid range? Unless the car you drive idles at 0 rpm.

[Max Schnell]

I drove my friend's 92 325i with LSD and manual for a week while he was out of town. 2800lb car with about 200hp at the crank (full bolt-ons) and full M3 suspension with upgraded bushings.

I can redline 1st, go into 2nd, and shift into 3rd near redline and be at 60mph but it take a bit of time. The sound and sensation was that you are racing the car. But as a passenger buddy of mine who is not a car guy pointed out...after all that I'd thought you would be going faster than this?

Cornering is another matter. The car handles like its on rails with little lean or drama. That aspect is more fun than a 335i but yet less fun than an actual E36 M3 which can pull harder and corner just as well.

My friend's 325i now has a OBDI S52 making 240whp still at 2800lbs. Needless to say he is having alot of fun with it as it is now the perfect combination of weight and power to having fun both in the straight and in the corners. Driving his modded M3 motor powered 325i after driving my near stock E36 M3 I'd prefer to drive his car.

Say what you will. There is a point where certain level of power simply matches the other abilities of the car perfectly. In that situation you will have more fun than having a brilliant chassis that is underpowered. I do not think I would be fully satisfied with only half of the equation.

I personally would not trade a 335i daily driver for a BRZ daily driver. The BRZ is better as a secondary fun car/track slut.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dark

LOL 2800rpm is mid range? Unless the car you drive idles at 0 rpm.

When I speak of low range torque it's like a car(4 cylinder turbo) that peaks very early like 1500-2500 rpms. The FR-S makes 80-90% of its torque at 2800rpms(even though it dips and comes back at 4200rpms). I consider that range mid range.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Yeah I made a mistake there. I'm a mid range guy(2800-5000 rpms) but I rarely ever go above the mid range. I revved my car to redline twice in 5 years.

So SUB, if we could make you an imaginary hybrid out of the FB25 and the FA20, this would probably be the motor for you: ~200 bhp @ 5600 rpm (based on airflow difference/rev between 2.0 and 2.5L but same max flow as the FA20), shuffle the torque peak to the natural inertia of the 2.5L motor with the 2.0L heads, and that would be ~3800 rpm. Guesstimate peak torque ~190 lb-ft (keeping high CR and D4-S efficiency).

So 200 hp @ 5600 rpm, 190 lb-ft @ 3800 rpm, but would probably run out of breath @ ~6000 rpm.

Sound like the motor you want in this car?

[serialk11r]

If max hp is at 5600, then the gears would need to be a lot shorter to get that higher torque to the wheel.
Er sorry, that was stupid. I meant the same gearing, which isn't what usually happens.

[SUB-FT86]

@ Max, your post is the best post I have ever seen on this forum. It pretty much says how I feel in a nutshell.

@Dimman, not quite. I like the idea of a FA25 with a 7400 rpm limit like the FA20. Only differences would be 30hp/30tq throughout most of the powerband. I still like the FRS but Im only stating what I think is a perfect sports car and dd.

[SUB-FT86]

@ Max, your post is the best post I have ever seen on this forum. It pretty much says how I feel in a nutshell.

@Dimman, not quite. I like the idea of a FA25 with a 7400 rpm limit like the FA20. Only differences would be 30hp/30tq throughout most of the powerband. I still like the FRS but Im only stating what I think is a perfect sports car and dd.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

If max hp is at 5600, then the gears would need to be a lot shorter to get that higher torque to the wheel.
Er sorry, that was stupid. I meant the same gearing, which isn't what usually happens.

They could match it to the higher rear ratio of the JDM 'Base' trim car.

SUB:

Depending on compatibility I get the impression that something like what I suggest may become a high-dollar mod. Depending on bore pitch and the cylinders, it's possible that the FA20 could be taken out to the same 94mm as the FB25, which would end up with a 2.4L displacement, and easily handle 7500 rpm. If it is possible, and matched with slightly larger valves and bigger/longer cams, appropriate headers, and tuning I could see it ending up as just a bigger, torquier (and way more expensive) FA20 with similar power/TQ curves.

But even if this becomes a mod, I suspect you were looking for something like this from the factory. FA24 with 240 hp/185 lb-ft...

[SUB-FT86]

Correct. I would love that from the factory.

[Dsbj]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Perhaps I have my generations wrong; a 2002 Carrera (RWD, non-S model) can be had for $20-25k where I live, depending on mileage. 986 Boxster S is even lower in price, though 987 Boxter S models still retain their value somewhat.

And I did see the topic, and I still think it's stupid compare a money pit to a brand new car with a warranty.

Again, this thread is about comparing the BRZ to a 335i. The only way they compare at a similar price point is used vs new. And you can get a used CPO for roughly the same price as a new BRZ. So again, it is a fair comparison. If this whole topic is stupid to you, why post here? Go elsewhere.