SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[Wepeel]

So I ran the BRZ for the first time yesterday. Crash bolts, RPF1's and 225 Rivals are all that I've done so far. Zero toe in front, factory toe in rear (about 2 mm total at the wheel edge).

Does anyone else think a front bar isn't needed? I felt with the added grip of the Rivals, the car didn't seem too tail happy. Turn-in and mid-corner front grip was good, but not as good as a stock NC Miata I've been codriving for a good part of this year. Although the NC Miata does have more power understeer.

I felt the shocks got a little floaty in faster high-speed transitions, but the car still sticks so I know I can lean on it a little more than I did yesterday. I can see how Konis would be a good improvement.

Also - for those running a muffler delete, any issues with passing noise?

[bucko3the7man]

I autocrossed my friend Justin's BRZ yesterday and had an absolute blast codriving with him. I am used to my girlfriend's miata (CS) and my legacy gt (STX). Neither of my cars are fully prepared for their classes and this brz was completely stock as well, except for a set of 2/32 Z1s that Justin got for free on the condition that he cord them. We were able to take 3rd and 4th in RTR (I had him by 3 tenths) at our local New England Region event. There were 14 competing in RTR yesterday. He made a massive improvement since an event we co-drove two weeks ago with better tread Z1s (the 225s off my legacy) where I beat him by a massive 2.5 seconds.

Here was my run from yesterday -

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z21_HRhuTDA"]NER 9-16-13 derek fastest - YouTube[/ame]

[AlanLGuy]

Originally Posted by Wepeel

So I ran the BRZ for the first time yesterday. Crash bolts, RPF1's and 225 Rivals are all that I've done so far. Zero toe in front, factory toe in rear (about 2 mm total at the wheel edge).

Does anyone else think a front bar isn't needed? I felt with the added grip of the Rivals, the car didn't seem too tail happy. Turn-in and mid-corner front grip was good, but not as good as a stock NC Miata I've been codriving for a good part of this year. Although the NC Miata does have more power understeer.

I felt the shocks got a little floaty in faster high-speed transitions, but the car still sticks so I know I can lean on it a little more than I did yesterday. I can see how Konis would be a good improvement.

Also - for those running a muffler delete, any issues with passing noise?

I ran this entire season in a completely stock FR-S except for a set on Z1 Star Specs. I finished 3rd for the year in our regional championship, winning car was a slightly more prepared BRZ. He has the Strano front sway, crash bolt alignment and and a muffler delete. He is also on Star Specs

I hopped in the BRZ for fun runs earlier this year and the thing I noticed most was the the turn in on his car was much better and the traction loss was much more predictable and progressive than in mine. Had a .3 improvement over my best time in the FR-S and the car felt much more engaged. I'm sure this is partly due to the crash bolt alignment but I think a large part of the "feel" was the front sway bar. I don't think a sway bar is strictly necessary speed wise, but I do feel like it makes the car easier to drive at the limit.

As to the exhaust noise, The BRZ is running the nameless track pipe I believe and is nowhere near the decibel limit.

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by Wepeel

So I ran the BRZ for the first time yesterday. Crash bolts, RPF1's and 225 Rivals are all that I've done so far. Zero toe in front, factory toe in rear (about 2 mm total at the wheel edge).

Does anyone else think a front bar isn't needed? I felt with the added grip of the Rivals, the car didn't seem too tail happy. Turn-in and mid-corner front grip was good, but not as good as a stock NC Miata I've been codriving for a good part of this year. Although the NC Miata does have more power understeer.

I think the level of benefit of the bar is very much dependant upon the surface. Early this year I was driving quite a slick surface and liked the balance with the OE bar (car was completely stock with OE Primacy's), Sean Grogan ran my car day 1 of the Toledo pro on the brushed concrete with koni's, crash bolts, and rivals and the car was insanely loose, even after shock adjustments. Sean ran his FR-S on day 2 with a FSB and all else equal and the car was much more settled.

I understand that between the 3 different scenarios the setups are far from a to b to c to draw a conclusion on just the FSB (even at the pro, switching to the FR-S added the spring rates as a variable), but it certainly didn't disprove any of the theories Sean or I had on how the car will be set up best.

When I make it out with full street prep next year, I'll be running early in the season at slick surface events with OE FSB before trialing a bigger bar.

[Rexpelagi]

Originally Posted by Wepeel

So I ran the BRZ for the first time yesterday. Crash bolts, RPF1's and 225 Rivals are all that I've done so far. Zero toe in front, factory toe in rear (about 2 mm total at the wheel edge).

Does anyone else think a front bar isn't needed? I felt with the added grip of the Rivals, the car didn't seem too tail happy. Turn-in and mid-corner front grip was good, but not as good as a stock NC Miata I've been codriving for a good part of this year. Although the NC Miata does have more power understeer.

Change to better tires and then check back.

[Sam Strano]

Hey guys. Remember something, the FR-S and the BRZ do not have the same front springs. If I was forced to run without a front bar, I'd pick the BRZ. That said the bar helps both cars. My friend Rexpelagi here was the top finishing 86 in RTR @ Nationals, in a car that had 4 things done to it. Koni's (NOT revalved), a Strano bar, and a muffler delete to go with the bolts.

We are nowhere near out of adjustment on the shocks. The car worked well on both courses, the car owner also trophied (and he's around here too). I've driven it and it's a lot of fun and not pushy.

The thing is you could make a lot of things work, and the rest of the setup matters. The tires you are on, the alignment, the dampers and even bigger is the driver/driving style. Typically the fastest cars @ Nationals are setup a touch tighter than what you often find at local events, because the drivers are different. Those at the top of a class know that slow corners are slow, and fast stuff is fast and you need a car that's good at fast stuff and not terrible at slow speeds. Most newer drivers or those used to running small lots are the opposite. Their cars tend to be looser, whether to compensate for tiny lots and corners, or for the very common overdriving slow corners.

Could a stock bar BRZ win? I think it could. Do I think one with a light bar (like mine, not 22 solid or more) is the way to go? No, which is why my bar is what it is. It is a trim change to make the car easier to drive. Do I think a stock bar FR-S can win? Maybe, but it's even more doubtful to me. And really, why have a car that's harder to drive???? I'll always take a "98%" car that's easy to drive over one that's supposedly 100% but tricky to run on the edge.

[Wepeel]

Originally Posted by Rexpelagi

Change to better tires and then check back.

Did you find the car to be looser on Z2's?

[G_Ride]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

Hey guys. Remember something, the FR-S and the BRZ do not have the same front springs. If I was forced to run without a front bar, I'd pick the BRZ. That said the bar helps both cars. My friend Rexpelagi here was the top finishing 86 in RTR @ Nationals, in a car that had 4 things done to it. Koni's (NOT revalved), a Strano bar, and a muffler delete to go with the bolts.

We are nowhere near out of adjustment on the shocks. The car worked well on both courses, the car owner also trophied (and he's around here too). I've driven it and it's a lot of fun and not pushy.

The thing is you could make a lot of things work, and the rest of the setup matters. The tires you are on, the alignment, the dampers and even bigger is the driver/driving style. Typically the fastest cars @ Nationals are setup a touch tighter than what you often find at local events, because the drivers are different. Those at the top of a class know that slow corners are slow, and fast stuff is fast and you need a car that's good at fast stuff and not terrible at slow speeds. Most newer drivers or those used to running small lots are the opposite. Their cars tend to be looser, whether to compensate for tiny lots and corners, or for the very common overdriving slow corners.

Could a stock bar BRZ win? I think it could. Do I think one with a light bar (like mine, not 22 solid or more) is the way to go? No, which is why my bar is what it is. It is a trim change to make the car easier to drive. Do I think a stock bar FR-S can win? Maybe, but it's even more doubtful to me. And really, why have a car that's harder to drive???? I'll always take a "98%" car that's easy to drive over one that's supposedly 100% but tricky to run on the edge.

What do you think about going down to 16" wheels for C Street next year?

[TRev]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

...in a car that had 4 things done to it. Koni's (NOT revalved), a Strano bar, and a muffler delete to go with the bolts.

You might be missing a drop in filter, light weight rims and an alignment, i.e. the car was fully prepped for RTR.

I was one of the cars with MCS shocks on it. I made that change a week before Nationals due to how badly the Konis were leaking up front and the way their performance had deteriorated. After talking with others who have owned Konis and listening to the problems that they have went through (one example is the winning RTA WRX last year that blew so many front inserts they ran stock shocks for fear of it happening at Nationals), I won't ever run them again. The customer service from MCS and Junior is something other vendors could really learn and benefit from as well.

[TRev]

Originally Posted by Wepeel

Did you find the car to be looser on Z2's?

I have run both the Z2's and Rivals all summer. The Rivals were significantly looser at Lincoln Nationals than the Z2. I am sure @Kido1986 would agree based on the comments he made to me after driving on them. My car went from overly loose (Rival) to a bit tight (Dunlop) with no other changes. The issue with the Rival is they seemed to pick up the OPR more than the Z2 and that OPR had a more negative effect. The Z2 was .2 to .3 seconds faster for me consistently than the Rival on its best run (30 second practice course). Once the Rival picked up the OPR, it fell off another .3 or more.

The Rival at other concrete events were OPR was lacking excelled in the dry. At Spring Nationals the Rivals were .3 seconds ahead of Z2's in the dry on day one. On day two it rained and the Z2's destroyed them in the rain. At Peru the Rivals were great in the dry which is concrete as well and does not build up OPR. At Wilmington the Z2 was better on day one first runs when the course was wet. The course started drying and by third runs the line was completely dry at which time the Rivals started to dominate.

[Kido1986]

The Rivals were WAY loose on a heavily rubbered-in course. I heard the FWD and AWD guys liked them a bit but that make perfect sense. Also, your tires were pretty much ruined if you went 1/2" off-line as they had MAJOR OPR (tire residue and chunk) build up compared to the Z2s.

Next year, my goal is to bring R-S3s and Z2s. Hankooks for hot and/or dry/drying, Z2s for cooler and/or wet days.

[Wepeel]

Originally Posted by TRev

I have run both the Z2's and Rivals all summer. The Rivals were significantly looser at Lincoln Nationals than the Z2. I am sure @Kido1986 would agree based on the comments he made to me after driving on them. My car went from overly loose (Rival) to a bit tight (Dunlop) with no other changes. The issue with the Rival is they seemed to pick up the OPR more than the Z2 and that OPR had a more negative effect. The Z2 was .2 to .3 seconds faster for me consistently than the Rival on its best run (30 second practice course). Once the Rival picked up the OPR, it fell off another .3 or more.

The Rival at other concrete events were OPR was lacking excelled in the dry. At Spring Nationals the Rivals were .3 seconds ahead of Z2's in the dry on day one. On day two it rained and the Z2's destroyed them in the rain. At Peru the Rivals were great in the dry which is concrete as well and does not build up OPR. At Wilmington the Z2 was better on day one first runs when the course was wet. The course started drying and by third runs the line was completely dry at which time the Rivals started to dominate.

Great info, thanks TRev. Did you stick with the 225/45 or did you go to the 235/40?

I've read that street tires don't like pinch, but has anyone actually tried a 245/40 on a 17x7 to verify?

[TRev]

Originally Posted by Wepeel

Great info, thanks TRev. Did you stick with the 225/45 or did you go to the 235/40?

I've read that street tires don't like pinch, but has anyone actually tried a 245/40 on a 17x7 to verify?

I am running the 225/45 Rival and the 235/40 Z2. The Z2 has more responsive turn in than the Rival. The Rival feels a bit numb in comparison. I haven't tried the 245/40. The 235/40 doesn't look overly pinched IMO. Stacked side by side, there is a noticeable difference in width between the Rival and Z2's that I have.

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by TRev

You might be missing a drop in filter, light weight rims and an alignment, i.e. the car was fully prepped for RTR..

Not to mention the DS2500 brake pads, from Sam nontheless! Also, I wouldn't call the wheels particularly lightweight at ~15.5 lbs, but they are right at 42mm offset.

Originally Posted by TRev

I was one of the cars with MCS shocks on it. I made that change a week before Nationals due to how badly the Konis were leaking up front and the way their performance had deteriorated. After talking with others who have owned Konis and listening to the problems that they have went through (one example is the winning RTA WRX last year that blew so many front inserts they ran stock shocks for fear of it happening at Nationals), I won't ever run them again. The customer service from MCS and Junior is something other vendors could really learn and benefit from as well.

For the record, my front Koni's have weeped oil at the adjusters from day 1. The passenger side is now very, very slight. The driver side is always damp at the slit I cut in the dust cover for the adjuster to stick through. Prior to my crazy nats/CO week (3500+mi!), they had ~5k mi and 285+ autocross runs. I've not noticed any day-to-day driving or performance issues and haven't felt the need to warranty them yet - maybe over the winter.