Toyota is Working on a GT86 Hybrid

[Steve201brz]

automatics are more common and majority of the population use cars simply as transportation. when cars first came out i feel they were more of a privelege to own. now you're basically an outcast if you don't have a car, let alone a driver's license. i can't speak for the rest of the world but america definetly favors the "convenience" which automatics provide.

whoever drives a hybrid vehicle to "prevent pollution" and "go green" are cutting the wrong corners, imo. the ways we gather/produce fuel for consumption are so cost focused i'm sure there's more efficient ways to get fossil fuels out of the ground. but if we make those more efficient then that means people make less money, clearly never going to happen

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Really? Might as well throw these away then.





Btw, I wish people would stop calling SMTs and DCTs automatics. L2 torque converter people.

Way to shoot yourself in the foot. All those vehicles you just showed in those photos have drivetrains that are replaced multiple times a season (for F1) and overhauled after every race (if not replaced) for the LM prototypes.

If that's not disposable...what is?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Way to shoot yourself in the foot. All those vehicles you just showed in those photos have drivetrains that are replaced multiple times a season (for F1) and overhauled after every race (if not replaced) for the LM prototypes.

If that's not disposable...what is?

Originally Posted by chrisl

Those are pretty much throwaway cars - their life expectancy is tiny compared to any viable street car.

Formula 1 mandates 8 engines and 5 transmissions per season, each weekend being about 1,000 km, with an 18,000 rpm redline I wouldn't be surprised if an F1 engine/transmission turns over more times in it's lifetime (don't forget dyno tuning before it leaves the factory) than a regular passenger car does in it's first couple years.

The batteries are thrown out every weekend but the KERS system is integrated into the transmission so it lasts 4 races.

No idea about the LMP cars though. Point being they aren't as disposable as you're implying, they are rather durable compared to the environment they are placed in and are being scaled to commercial use as we speak.

Edit did some ballpark maths, should probably change the comparison in passenger cars to "first year" not years.

[Anaxilus]

Somebody's shootin' blanks apparently.

[s0sl0w]

Originally Posted by PR FR-S

2.5L N/A would probably be the most economical and simplest way to do it.
2.0 L Turbo would be cooler and it would also be the easiest to modify to get even morepower.
2.0 LHybrid. For me the systems are too complicated and would add more weight thanthe other options

I think tuning the FA20 is the best option to suit the nature of the car, unless the 2.5 they put in revs equally high.

[Moto-P]

Truth of the matter is this:

If they wanted to make a turbocharged FR-S/BRZ/86, they have all the parts they need aside from a few components to stuff it in the FR-S/86/BRZ... Subaru already uses a FA20 in turbocharged configuration in the Japanese market Legacy and other cars.

Why they don't produce it has many reasons, some I can't mention, but other reason that is the MAJOR concern for any large automaker like Subaru is certification costs of a new engine in the USA, when accounted for by the potential sales volume of what will become roughly a $33,000 car. While this is arguable here among us enthusiasts who can speak only based on speculations and assumptions, but folks who actually have the numbers inside the think-tanks of both firms are less confident in assuring the analysts and bankers who keep the company going...

In fact, the BEST way to convince them, is all of us, going out of our way to convince MORE people to adopt an FRS/BRZ/86 and drive the sales of the current car upwards by a ton. Whether the car sells to stance guys, old ladies, hydro-lowrider Mexican, or Initial D Fever Anime geek... it doesn't matter. Many more of these cars need to sell, and sell, and sell more... So that the accountants and investors can be assured and some of the less bold executives to grab some balls to give it a GO sign.

On the topic of hybrid, and partial electric assist... It is something that have come a long way, and it need not be a Prius type thing, as there are other ways such systems can be implemented to not add much weight at all, and work off a capacitive discharge system that's more like the TS030 and F1 cars than a long-range battery load system. And it is a very SEXY sounding car when applied correctly, taking almost nothing away from a naturally aspirated note, and power delivery that's a ton more natural than a boosted engine. And that's something Toyota has in the bag of tricks already too, almost ready to go... But the same problem mentioned above is the biggest obstacle. Internet voice may be strong, but it sometimes does not get followed by actual buying power of the public... And the latter is where things can be very delicate.

If you had $500 in your pocket. And internet hype told you to spend it 5 days before your rent was due... And forums people told you $200 of it put into a risky product investment will net you $50 or cost you $300 at the end if things didn't go well... Would you spend it if it was your last $500?

That's basically what making any sports car means in today's market, only we add about 6 more zeros behind that figure, and have it be responsible for about 9,000 employee's jobs and lives.

And they were brave enough to make the FRS we have in the first place.

We just need to keep making others buy it as well, and enjoy what we have, so that makers can also be much more comforted in our numbers.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Somebody's shootin' blanks apparently.

Actually, nothing he said disagrees with my statement. He just has a different opinion/definition of durable. If you feel like a hybrid powertrain could be durable enough to last 22+ years and 300,000+ miles with an 8,000 rpm redline then I'm all for it.

[BlueDubbinTDI]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

Meh...the CR-Z seemed more like a throwback to CRX fans. If it was a sports coupe more in line with the Del Sol or Integra/RSX, I bet it would've sold FAR better at 150-200hp(because of added weight) rather than the 125 it has now, which I'm sure is fine for what it is.

Personally, I still think it's a great looking car and would've gotten one, but I need a rear seat.

I wanted to see out the windows

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Moto-P

Truth of the matter is this:

If they wanted to make a turbocharged FR-S/BRZ/86, they have all the parts they need aside from a few components to stuff it in the FR-S/86/BRZ... Subaru already uses a FA20 in turbocharged configuration in the Japanese market Legacy and other cars.

Why they don't produce it has many reasons, some I can't mention, but other reason that is the MAJOR concern for any large automaker like Subaru is certification costs of a new engine in the USA, when accounted for by the potential sales volume of what will become roughly a $33,000 car. While this is arguable here among us enthusiasts who can speak only based on speculations and assumptions, but folks who actually have the numbers inside the think-tanks of both firms are less confident in assuring the analysts and bankers who keep the company going...

In fact, the BEST way to convince them, is all of us, going out of our way to convince MORE people to adopt an FRS/BRZ/86 and drive the sales of the current car upwards by a ton. Whether the car sells to stance guys, old ladies, hydro-lowrider Mexican, or Initial D Fever Anime geek... it doesn't matter. Many more of these cars need to sell, and sell, and sell more... So that the accountants and investors can be assured and some of the less bold executives to grab some balls to give it a GO sign.

On the topic of hybrid, and partial electric assist... It is something that have come a long way, and it need not be a Prius type thing, as there are other ways such systems can be implemented to not add much weight at all, and work off a capacitive discharge system that's more like the TS030 and F1 cars than a long-range battery load system. And it is a very SEXY sounding car when applied correctly, taking almost nothing away from a naturally aspirated note, and power delivery that's a ton more natural than a boosted engine. And that's something Toyota has in the bag of tricks already too, almost ready to go... But the same problem mentioned above is the biggest obstacle. Internet voice may be strong, but it sometimes does not get followed by actual buying power of the public... And the latter is where things can be very delicate.

If you had $500 in your pocket. And internet hype told you to spend it 5 days before your rent was due... And forums people told you $200 of it put into a risky product investment will net you $50 or cost you $300 at the end if things didn't go well... Would you spend it if it was your last $500?

That's basically what making any sports car means in today's market, only we add about 6 more zeros behind that figure, and have it be responsible for about 9,000 employee's jobs and lives.

And they were brave enough to make the FRS we have in the first place.

We just need to keep making others buy it as well, and enjoy what we have, so that makers can also be much more comforted in our numbers.

Great post, but I see a few *****s in your armor. I find it highly unlikely that Subaru won't bring their new turbocharged boxer engine to the US. It's almost a certainty that the next WRX will have that engine, and it will probably come over in a few other models as well. So that negates the certification costs.

And secondly, a supercharged engine (which is boosted) has no lag if belt driven. So I don't see how a hybrid powertrain would feel "more natural" than that.

:happy0180:

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Great post, but I see a few *****s in your armor. I find it highly unlikely that Subaru won't bring their new turbocharged boxer engine to the US. It's almost a certainty that the next WRX will have that engine, and it will probably come over in a few other models as well. So that negates the certification costs.

And secondly, a supercharged engine (which is boosted) has no lag if belt driven. So I don't see how a hybrid powertrain would feel "more natural" than that.

:happy0180:

The FA20T is already here in the Forrester, no need to speculate about the WRX or regulation costs, the car will still have to be certified with the new motor, it will still cost a fair amount and I think Moto-P is on the optimistic end of the price, remember that after tax title licence this will be a $35k car up against track pack Mustang GTs and 370Z, it's a stiff market at an awkward price point and the two recognizable cars frankly don't sell that amazingly.

When was the last Subaru engine that was supercharged? For that matter I can't think of any factory supercharged boxers off the top of my head. Sure it can be done but they have so much less experience with that technology that I would prefer a turbo from them if I had a choice in my new DD which needs to be reliable.

[DarkSunrise]

The FR-S/GT86 have re-awakened people's imaginations as to what a company like Toyota can do. And they didn't even need to build an unprofitable, high-priced sports car to do it. All it took was a company bold enough to fight against the trend of more hp, more weight, and more luxury to build a back-to-basics, pure sports car. And Toyota has been rewarded with a car that has sold beyond expectations its first year and has strengthened Toyota's brand image.

Speaking from a business (and not an enthusiast) perspective, I don't think the next step for Toyota is to enter the $35k market with a TRD version, as there isn't enough demand for cars in that price/performance bracket and the market is already saturated. Toyota should focus on the next iteration of this car, staying within the same $25k-30k range and incrementally increasing horsepower and cutting weight. Something like 215 hp at 2650 lbs should be achievable through a small bump in displacement (or revising the current FA20) and the use of lightweight materials in the chassis. That would probably be enough for me to open my wallet again in 2015.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by chulooz

15%? - what is this a percentage of? How do you measure wheel spin in %?
'ideal' acceleration requires spin? No, Ideally you want 0% spin, 100% go.

Actually, he's right on this one. 15% seems a bit high compared to the numbers I've seen (which are more like 5-6%), but ideal acceleration does in fact require some slippage (although some of the wheel slip comes from tire deformation, and doesn't involve any wheelspin at all). As for what the percentage means? 100% slip would mean that the wheel speed would be twice the car speed (so for every revolution of your front wheels, your rears would spin twice). 5% slip means that for every revolution of your front wheels, your rears would spin 1.05 times. So, this optimum slip value is pretty small, and you won't really notice it if you are watching the launch. However, it is faster than no slip, and the only way to get this kind of ideal launch is with traction control.

[WolfpackS2k]

I still think its ridiculous for anyone to "insists" that any model with a significant increase in power HAS to cost close to $35k. Meanwhile the Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Civic Si, Mazdaspeed3, Impreza WRX and Hyundai Genesis 3.8 all cost $5000 or less than their comparable less powerful models. Open your eyes.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I still think its ridiculous for anyone to "insists" that any model with a significant increase in power HAS to cost close to $35k. Meanwhile the Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Civic Si, Mazdaspeed3, Impreza WRX and Hyundai Genesis 3.8 all cost $5000 or less than their comparable less powerful models. Open your eyes.

Those cars are based on platforms that have a lot of heritage and are evolutions of cars that sell in great numbers. It costs less to build those cars than an 86. Those cars are also using engines that have years of history and development within the company and Mazda, Ford, and Hyundai are the only ones on your list with Direct injection. Ford and Mazda developed those technologies on other cars before applying them to their ST cars offsetting the cost by a generous amount

The only cheap way to get more power in an 86 from the factory is to swap in an old already developed motor (outgoing STI or 2.5L) which would require entirely new plumbing and likely chassis modifications to get it to fit. Realistically yes they could get a model in the showrooms for $30k, it is feasible. But due to demand and the concept that this is a car for DEVELOPING technology I find it unlikely that they would throw in a cheap older motor just to please a relatively small segment of the internet population and shave $5k off the price. Sure it would probably sell as well or better than the $35k model but Subaru/Toyota would have learned nothing from it's development, it would be a throwaway car to silence internet trolls who will just rise again to ask for another 20 to 30 to 50 more horespower.

tl:dr Sports cars are made for two reasons: street cred and technology development, they don't sell in large enough numbers to be big money makers so the value comes in developing technology, just throwing in a cheap performance upgrade is a poor long term decision for an automaker.