Toyota is Working on a GT86 Hybrid

[dem00n]

Originally Posted by onefitz

Sure the DCT is faster, but I'd bet the sales of a DCT vs the MT would stay about where they are now with the traditional automatic.

Hell look at the uproar over Porsche only offering the PDK in the new GT3.

Only people complaining about the GT3 are the people who can't afford it.


There was a good article about how people want more manuals but that no one is really buying them.

Its cheaper to take a run of the mill dual clutch, recycle it in a million cars and say its different then the others. (;

[dem00n]

Originally Posted by onefitz

Or if you plan on modifying the car immensely. Or you don't want a computer doing everything for you.

I don't see where 'dumb and slow' plays into a good hard launch.

You ever prime your own ignition and set up your carbs in an early winter morning?

Don't complain about computers, they've made cars a lot better and worse.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by chulooz

The point was that they are found in a majority of average performance cars and are popular; yes they are nearly gone in the vanilla car world, but performance cars show the opposite.

Even Lotus, the same people who don't bother with power steering, is using paddle shifters now. Maybe you look at different cars than I do, but manual transmissions seem to be getting harder and harder to find.

The more rare they become, the less people will know how to drive them, which will only fuel the demand for even more automatics. The misconception that you have to know how to drive one to buy one is ridiculously common, so evolution will have its way.

I don't think they'll ever totally disappear, at least not in our lifetimes, because like you said, there is still a market of purists. But I don't know how you could say they're not disappearing. I hope you're right though.

[chulooz]

brz, wrx, sti, frs, tc, is250, 370, g37, juke, mustang, focus, camero, corvette, challenger, charger, srt viper, genesis, veloster, optima, gti, gli, 1series, 3series, 5series, a3, a4, s4, a5, tt, tt rs, si, accord, tsx, 911, boxster, cayman, cts-v, cla, ms3, miata...

Thats just the short list off the top; which manual is becoming harder to find?


You will notice that MTs almost always fetch more in the used performance market as well.

[Anthony]

Touché. So maybe it isn't so much that they're hard to find as it is that autos are creeping their way into places they've never been before. I first started feeling this way when I went with my friend to go test drive a Volkswagen R32. Apparently it was only available in automatic. He was leaning towards an STi anyway, but wanted to look at Evos and that car as well. The automatic was a deal breaker for him.

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Touché. So maybe it isn't so much that they're hard to find as it is that autos are creeping their way into places they've never been before. I first started feeling this way when I went with my friend to go test drive a Volkswagen R32. Apparently it was only available in automatic. He was leaning towards an STi anyway, but wanted to look at Evos and that car as well. The automatic was a deal breaker for him.

And have you seen many r32's running around? His experience wasnt unique, manufacturers know what gear heads want... GEARS!

[InvalidJohnny5]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

That all sounds good, but you didn't discuss fuel economy and I can see why... Subaru's 2.0L Direct Injection Turbo gets 23city/28hwy MPG and is only that "good" because it's mated to a CVT. Subaru suggests a 19% increase in fuel economy directly due to the CVT itself. so we're looking more like 19city/24hwy MPG at best with a manual transmission on premium fuel only. Fuel economy has always been one of the many downsides of turbocharging and it remains. The HP and TQ gains are not free.

Oh really? I have noticed an extra +20 miles per fill up and I drive more aggressive now with the turbo.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by InvalidJohnny5

Oh really? I have noticed an extra +20 miles per fill up and I drive more aggressive now with the turbo.

So you're saying that by adding a turbo and driving the car faster you get a +1.5 mpg increase. Cool story b... aww forget it.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by chulooz

brz, wrx, sti, frs, tc, is250, 370, g37, juke, mustang, focus, camero, corvette, challenger, charger, srt viper, genesis, veloster, optima, gti, gli, 1series, 3series, 5series, a3, a4, s4, a5, tt, tt rs, si, accord, tsx, 911, boxster, cayman, cts-v, cla, ms3, miata...

Thats just the short list off the top; which manual is becoming harder to find?


You will notice that MTs almost always fetch more in the used performance market as well.

The US market is the only market requesting manual transmission cars.

The rest of the World is buying automatics. For example, Porsche expects more than 80% of Boxster/Cayman sales to be PDK. Most of the performance drivers I know want to be faster.

What on earth is the "used performance market"?

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

So you're saying that by adding a turbo and driving the car faster you get a +1.5 mpg increase. Cool story b... aww forget it.

Low pressure turbocharging can make an engine more fuel efficient. Even driving aggressively results in full boost being used for less than 10% of the time. SAAB did studies in the 70's that led them to pioneer low pressure turbo charging, or at least low rpm turbocharging resulting in significant fuel economy improvements over larger naturally aspirated engines. Much to their surprise they also found fuel economy gains using the same sized engines.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by onefitz

Or if you plan on modifying the car immensely. Or you don't want a computer doing everything for you.

I don't see where 'dumb and slow' plays into a good hard launch.

Dumping a clutch is not a good hard launch. It's a launch for dummies that can't drive.

Ideal acceleration requires about 15% wheel slip. This is why proper software launch control beats a manual shift every time. Heck, even the new Corvette has launch control. F1 cars cannot, because it beats the driver every time.

Just try and achieve exactly 15% wheelspin....if you can then you also won't need ABS. You can then get a job coaching Mark Webber

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Suberman

The US market is the only market requesting manual transmission cars.

The rest of the World is buying automatics. For example, Porsche expects more than 80% of Boxster/Cayman sales to be PDK. Most of the performance drivers I know want to be faster.

What on earth is the "used performance market"?

I'd be curious to see some statistics on that US vs rest of the world claim - I was taking to my porsche dealer a while back, and apparently, 911s in this area are something like 90% PDK, and Boxster/Cayman sales are in that 80% range you mentioned. I doubt there's a huge discrepancy between the US and the rest of the world there, and if anything, I'd tend to expect fewer autos elsewhere, at least based on my time in Europe (where manuals seem much more prevalent than they are here).

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Touché. So maybe it isn't so much that they're hard to find as it is that autos are creeping their way into places they've never been before. I first started feeling this way when I went with my friend to go test drive a Volkswagen R32. Apparently it was only available in automatic. He was leaning towards an STi anyway, but wanted to look at Evos and that car as well. The automatic was a deal breaker for him.

Really? I test drove a stick shift Golf R just last year, so clearly someone at VW came to their senses.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Suberman

BMW supplies all of their cars with 8 spd torque converter automatics or DCT type transmissions except in the US.

This isn't true at all (even ignoring the minor technicality that their dct is a 7-spd). You can definitely still buy a stick shift BMW in Europe, and I'd bet that they sell a higher proportion of manuals there than they do here.