Stock ride height or lower?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Okay...so coilovers can preserve or improve ride quality while allowing a drop, am I reading this correctly? From what I am reading, springs and shocks will have a harsher ride if you lower it.
I would not do wheel to wheel racing, I would want to have at least stock comfort, but a little less ground clearance and perhaps 1-2 inches of fender gap showing.

i think its important to note that springs and shocks might not be any different than coilovers since some shocks have adjustable perches or are short stroke. as long as the shock is valved for the spring rates and the ride height you want is achieved by the shock spring setup there would be no difference between the two. adjusting ride height shouldnt be something you do more than once really since your spring rates arent changing so if a matched set is designed to give the suspension as much travel as it needs in both low and high speed shock rates there really arent any problems

[MrVito]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

They're for race cars. Drop spindles are overkill for 95% of consumers. If you want to do a subtle drop, shocks and springs will do what you need, coilovers if you're willing to set them up.

Or if you buy an A-Body, I still need to order some drop spindles for the Chevelle

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Okay...so coilovers can preserve or improve ride quality while allowing a drop, am I reading this correctly? From what I am reading, springs and shocks will have a harsher ride if you lower it.
I would not do wheel to wheel racing, I would want to have at least stock comfort, but a little less ground clearance and perhaps 1-2 inches of fender gap showing.

i guess the internet never changes..


a coilover is a spring over a shock

this is to differentiate from leafsprings (such as a corvette, or any truck), torsion beams (like the rear of a 944), or setups where the spring sits independently from the shock (such as the rear end of a all but the new generation of VW Golf and pretty much any "econo" FWD car) and the other weird crap like airbags.

a "coilover" as we know them is simply a shock that allows height adjustment for its spring.

thats it.



coilovers that only shift the height of of the spring perch will never retain comfort while lowering, because you reduce the shock travel (distance between bump-stop and shock body shrinks), this means you better be driving on smooth roads.

coilovers that allow the body of the shock to adjust it's height relative to its mounting point can preserve comfort, HOWEVER, this depends on car design, as other factors start entering the equation.

for instance the wheel starts to move about in dimensions that the OEM didn't plan on doing, putting undue stress on things like tie rod ends, balljoints, and CV joints.


number # 1 rule of car tuning, there will always be compromise.

You must understand how the components all interact with each other and make a decision yourself, PREFERABLY by actually TESTING things or getting rides in cars with those modifications that you want done.

[meWant]

so what would you guys recommend for a 1inch drop? because that is the most i will do to the car and probably what i will do to the car

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by meWant

so what would you guys recommend for a 1inch drop? because that is the most i will do to the car and probably what i will do to the car

I recommend you wait for suspension engineers to hash out the details.

At this point we [the consumer/aftermarket] have zero suspension stroke and geometry data. If there's sufficient compression stroke to accommodate lowering springs, that will be a suitable solution. If there isn't, then a correctly designed coil-over kit will be the only well-engineered solution.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

No. Coilovers give you the ability, in most cases, to adjust your shock setting and ride height. The actual ride quality is still determined by the springs you select and your settings. They're also much more labor intensive to set up. You have to set the ride height even at all 4 corners, get the car aligned, get it corner balanced, and then spend some time dialing in your damper settings.

A well selected spring and shock combination, where the shock is designed for the rate and height of the spring, will give you the exact same result in terms of ride quality. However, you will not be able to fine tune your handling or adjust your ride height. If you get adjustable short stroke shocks....you really only lose the ability to corner balance and adjust your ride height, which is something you shouldn't be doing anyways.

For me, the whole point of threaded body or sleeve coilovers is having the ability to run whatever spring rates I want. Off the shelf lowering springs are generally focused on looks and safety (ie understeer).

As you said, car should be adjusted for height, corner weighted (with the driver in the car) and never touched again (for height), unless you change rates of course.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by meWant

so what would you guys recommend for a 1inch drop? because that is the most i will do to the car and probably what i will do to the car

In terms of general technology or specifics? Specifics can't be provided right now, since the car isn't even out and no products are released for it either.

Technology wise, lowering springs and shocks if needed (depends on the spring rates). Threaded body setups are usually too low at max height to be just 1" lower. You could also run threaded sleeves (ground control for example) on Koni sports, Bilsteins, etc to lower it about 1" with whatever spring rates you want. The threaded sleeve and revalved bilstein setup is my preference for most "low cost" suspension setups, with real (not the JDM junk ones, some of the JDM setups are good but at the cost of the good ones I'd rather run something I can easily get support and rebuilds for in the US) threaded body setups on the higher end.

[delongedoug]

The only options I'd consider are a quality spring/strut combo from RCE or some nice (read: $2k+) coilovers. Either way, I'll continue to order from and consult with Andrew & Myles at RCE for my suspension needs. They were very helpful when I was planning a coilover build/purchase for my track Evo.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

coilovers that only shift the height of of the spring perch will never retain comfort while lowering, because you reduce the shock travel (distance between bump-stop and shock body shrinks), this means you better be driving on smooth roads.

coilovers that allow the body of the shock to adjust it's height relative to its mounting point can preserve comfort, HOWEVER, this depends on car design, as other factors start entering the equation.

This gets repeated over and over but it isn't necessarily true.

1. Dual height adjustable coilovers do not sacrifice bump travel when lowering the car which is nice....BUT they almost always start out with very little anyway in my experience.

2. Coilovers that use dual height adjustment without a helper spring have essentially 0 droop travel (or only what the spring compresses from the weight of the car). Droop travel is still very important for ride quality, and also helps keep the rear wheels planted under cornering.

3. Coilovers that use the spring perch to adjust height and have a helper (such as KW, AST, JRZ, Moton.) often have an assload of travel anyway, and are designed with shorter bodies so it's just like a dual height adjustable coilover that is already adjusted down. For the Impreza at least, at most ride heights you end up with more bump travel and more droop travel than any of the dual height adjustable options when using a quality single height adjustable coilover.

4. Dual height adjustablity is often advertised as a "feature"...when in reality it is simply a cost saving measure. Companies will simply produce different lower mounts to screw on to generic dampers that are the same for a bunch of different vehicles. This happens all the time with many of the lower end coilovers. Not a good thing.

In theory dual height adjustablity is a good thing....but in practice it is not implemented well (with the exception of Ohlins). Most motorsport level coilovers are not dual height adjustable because they already use shorter bodies. If you are completely slamming the car beyond what even a track car would be at, then yes, get a dual height adjustable coilover.

Originally Posted by meWant

so what would you guys recommend for a 1inch drop? because that is the most i will do to the car and probably what i will do to the car

Way too soon to tell.

Originally Posted by delongedoug

The only options I'd consider are a quality spring/strut combo from RCE or some nice (read: $2k+) coilovers. Either way, I'll continue to order from and consult with Andrew & Myles at RCE for my suspension needs. They were very helpful when I was planning a coilover build/purchase for my track Evo.

Thanks!

- Andrew

[GT3076rBRZ]

I'll be going with whatever comes out by either Kw, ST, or if FK decides to make something. I plan on lowering it as much as possible, may even go air untill race prepped parts become available

[CyberFormula]

Coilovers are complex stuff....

in which i think most people do it wrong...or don't experience the full benefits of it.

I don't know about you guys, but adjusting tire pressure at a Track Day already affects handling. Now if you have coilovers, you'll be adjusting dampening as well as chamber angles...and if more extremely precise the toe in/toe out as well.

Unless the car is a full prep race car and you're doing constant track days where you took enough notes to know how each adjustment affected the car on that day at a specific temperature and weather and circuit, I don't feel coilovers are really a good option considering you're going to spend $1000-3000 on a good set and having to put ALOT of work to make the car handle perfectly (and i suspect most of us will never get it the way we want it; except ride height)

Cup kits however, i believe is a great option where the springs and shocks are matched. Ride height comes standard.


Me, I'm still probably going to go coilovers ...but not in the near future.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

Coilovers are complex stuff....

in which i think most people do it wrong...or don't experience the full benefits of it.

I don't know about you guys, but adjusting tire pressure at a Track Day already affects handling. Now if you have coilovers, you'll be adjusting dampening as well as chamber angles...and if more extremely precise the toe in/toe out as well.

Unless the car is a full prep race car and you're doing constant track days where you took enough notes to know how each adjustment affected the car on that day at a specific temperature and weather and circuit, I don't feel coilovers are really a good option considering you're going to spend $1000-3000 on a good set and having to put ALOT of work to make the car handle perfectly (and i suspect most of us will never get it the way we want it; except ride height)

Cup kits however, i believe is a great option where the springs and shocks are matched. Ride height comes standard.


Me, I'm still probably going to go coilovers ...but not in the near future.

i dont see how these cup kits are any better than a coilover and it seems like they take you away from the stock suspension design. you shouldnt be adjusting a shock too much since they are made to be paired with a spring. i dont think you will be changing springs all the time. as long as you have low speed shock rates that pair with the spring and high speed shock rates and suspension travel to keep you in the desired parts of the camber curve you wouldnt want to adjust your shock ever. you dont tune your suspension to the road you tune it to the car.

[WingsofWar]

air ride and cup kit users for the BRZ/FRS/86 are definitely going to be the minority. The big thing about this car..like the Miata, is how its used. And like the Miata, you dont see many owners opt for a air system because honestly it just does not fit the characteristic of a small grocery autox car.

Also, any VIP tuner looking to "VIP" the car is going to have a tough time adjusting the car to fit that image.

Anyway...there are typically two types of people I see trying to buy coilovers;
1. People who want a lower car look, while keeping drive comfort, but they don't know if they are going to track or not.
2. People looking to get the most out of their suspension, whether tracking or not.

...Its no use trying to educate the first type of people. Tell them that there are going to be some sacrifices and some perks, then just direct them to a vendor that could fit their needs.

The second type of people will start a thread on their favorite forum. Tell people that they bought a coilover system without regard of thinking it through. Then writing a review about it. Those are the people that desperately need to be educated or need to continue their education.


ALSO!

Only company i know of that has fitted their aftermarket coilover system in the US is Greddy. The GReddy’s Type-S coilover system found on the Greddy FR-S. Unfortunately I question the build and shock dyno of the system to fit the FR-S needs, and not just pieced together to fit. Then theres HKS and TRD which has shown coilover systems on their demo cars. So if any of you guys needs stock spring rate information or dampening information, Greddy might have the answer.

[GT3076rBRZ]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

air ride and cup kit users for the BRZ/FRS/86 are definitely going to be the minority. The big thing about this car..like the Miata, is how its used. And like the Miata, you dont see many owners opt for a air system because honestly it just does not fit the characteristic of a small grocery autox car.

Also, any VIP tuner looking to "VIP" the car is going to have a tough time adjusting the car to fit that image.

Anyway...there are typically two types of people I see trying to buy coilovers;
1. People who want a lower car look, while keeping drive comfort, but they don't know if they are going to track or not.
2. People looking to get the most out of their suspension, whether tracking or not.

...Its no use trying to educate the first type of people. Tell them that there are going to be some sacrifices and some perks, then just direct them to a vendor that could fit their needs.

The second type of people will start a thread on their favorite forum. Tell people that they bought a coilover system without regard of thinking it through. Then writing a review about it. Those are the people that desperately need to be educated or need to continue their education.


ALSO!

Only company i know of that has fitted their aftermarket coilover system in the US is Greddy. The GReddy’s Type-S coilover system found on the Greddy FR-S. Unfortunately I question the build and shock dyno of the system to fit the FR-S needs, and not just pieced together to fit. Then theres HKS and TRD which has shown coilover systems on their demo cars. So if any of you guys needs stock spring rate information or dampening information, Greddy might have the answer.

Ya air will be very rare, but I track my car and autox on air and tell you what the car handles better with the digital elevel management then when I had kw v3s with springs rated for the car and it corner balanced. Air, if done right will be as good of not better than a tuned coilover setup. At the Sema muscle car challenge ALL of the pony cars were running kits from Ridetech, or AST