Penske 8300 vs Ohlins TTX36

[7thgear]

aweomse! thank you.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

what is the reasoning behind choosing the TIEN SRC as your base?

Kickbacks.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Kickbacks.

I'd love to have a free set of SRCs on my s2k...

[mike156]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The SRC is also made to be durable; there is a race version of the SRC (N1) which directly competes with the 8300 and TTX36. However, the N1, 8300, and TTX36 will not last as long as the SRC, and will need rebuilds more frequently. Additionally, with a macpherson strut application, the front shock body needs to be STRONG.

Out of curiosity, what makes you feel that a Tien is going to be more durable then these other options?


Ultimately, with the higher end stuff, you are really paying for manufacturing tolerances. With limited production runs, it's very expensive to maintain tight tolerance components. I don't see how the Tiens could really match the manufacturing tolerance of the high end stuff without being equally expensive?

The only reason Bilstein can pull off "cheap and tight tolerance" is because they use the same internal components in their OEM shocks as their top of the line shocks so there is scale of production that keeps prices in check. They have multi-million dollar machines that do one thing all day long (size tubing, grind shafts, etc.) and those machines were designed specifically for that purpose. Also the lack of adjusters is exactly why they are so predictable and well balanced one shock to the next.

The only real exception here is the PSS10, clubsports and MDS stuff and they are considerably more expensive because they are not part of the standard production pieces.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mike156

Out of curiosity, what makes you knowthat a Tien is going to be more durable then these other options?


Ultimately, with the higher end stuff, you are really paying for manufacturing tolerances. With limited production runs, it's very expensive to maintain tight tolerance components. I don't see how the Tiens could really match the manufacturing tolerance of the high end stuff without being equally expensive?

The only reason Bilstein can pull off "cheap and tight tolerance" is because they use the same internal components in their OEM shocks as their top of the line shocks so there is scale of production that keeps prices in check. They have multi-million dollar machines that do one thing all day long (size tubing, grind shafts, etc.) and those machines were designed specifically for that purpose. Also the lack of adjusters is exactly why they are so predictable and well balanced one shock to the next.

The only real exception here is the PSS10, clubsports and MDS stuff and they are considerably more expensive because they are not part of the standard production pieces.

It's not the fact that it's a Tein. It's the intended use, and the construction that reflected that intended use.

The Tein SRC is lighter than stock, but it could be MUCH lighter if they decided to make it lighter (that's essentially what the N1 is; it's about 45% lighter). Instead, they overbuild it to make it more durable.

Remember, a LOT of load goes on a macpherson strut..

[xwd]

I think the idea of a high end shock being less durable and requiring frequent rebuilds is a bit misleading. Most of the components used in the higher end shocks are better than what you'll find on most others, and that includes seals, etc. if the shocks are meant to be driven on the street as well.

Different shock companies have different tuning philosophies as well. The MCS/JRZ/Moton somewhat prefer higher low-speed compression which is digressive whereas Penske traditionally has been all about low-speed rebound to control the chassis and more linear compression. However now they have double digressive pistons and even a regressive piston. The regressive actually lowers the damping amount after a certain shaft velocity is reached, which works on compression to absorb large bumps without unsettling the car. Penske originally developed it for F1 to handle hitting curbing mid-corner.

If money was no object I would have stuck with the Penske route. Anze is a great vendor and built the suspension for the old Subaru WRX/STi road race cars along with many other applications. My guess is out the door cost for a set of shocks with springs and top hats would be ~$7500. The front struts are what make things $$$ for this car, it's a lot of work to develop a one-off strut versus just bolting on a shock.

I'm very happy with the MCS setup, it's comfortable on the road and the adjustments make a real difference in the handling of the car which is all you can ask for. They are awesome to deal with and very responsive. Having them 10 minutes from my house doesn't hurt either.

[mike156]

CSGMike, what specifically is overbuilt about them though? For example, I'd absolutely agree a 36mm inverted monotube strut is going to be stronger and stiffer then a 19mm standard monotube strut. But comparing 2 inverted monotubes, it starts to get a little more complicated:

Strut tube diameter/thickness
Piston rod diameter
Piston diameter
Piston shaft guide length
Piston bearing length
Strut bearing length/spacing
Materials
Seal/wiper design

That's without even getting into the mounts.

Don't take this the wrong way either as I'm curious about the Tiens. I’m just surprised to see ANYBODY comparing them when mentioning TTXs, JRZ, Penske, etc. The TTXs for example aren’t even in the same realm when talking design as they are a solid piston shock that aren’t “really” twin tube shocks at all. The tube arrangement is used to direct flow through the valve assembly and isn’t at all similar to a standard twin tube.

[CSG Mike]

A TTX damper isn't necessarily made with a street application in mind, whereas a JRZ is.

It's reflected in the damper weights, and their tolerance for unexpected abuse, like small dings, etc. I'd feel comfortable hitting the JRZ or Tein strut with a hammer; I wouldn't with a Ohlins or Penske. They're made to be light, and are less durable.

Don't get me wrong; they're still very high quality products.

Were budget not an issue and the product not being developed for a high performance street market, we wouldn't be using a Tein. Would I street drive on a TTX if I had the budget? Of course. I'd put Penskes on a dedicated race car though. Alas, I haven't won the lottery yet...

[Racecomp Engineering]

nm

[7thgear]

could also be the Chapman philosophy


If your car doesn’t fall apart after 1 race, it’s not light enough…

[mike156]

I could see the low drag seals on the rear shock. But MacPherson struts aren't a low friction setup either way and I'd be surprised if they were using such seals in a strut application.

I think a lot of the short service interval on race shocks is primarily due to the fluid. I doubt the fluid breaks down any more in a race shock then a normal shock (under the same conditions). The difference is likely that these companies have determined a sufficient amount of fluid break down has taken place by 10k miles or so and it needs to be replaced to keep the shock working in peak form. This likely holds for any shock but the level of change is probably fairly insignificant so this break down gets ignored on street shocks.

Now if these shocks don't have shaft wipers or are using a consumable type shaft bearing or something like that in an effort to reduce friction, I could see the shorter service life being needed.

I do know PSI told me that for a street setup, the Ohlins R&T are about the best damper out there. You get a lot for your money and they hold up well. The R&T however are in the price range of the SRCs, those would be a good comparison. That comparison would really come down to spring rates, valving, etc. that is chassis specific. Comparing either to the TTX series or the Penske's is a pretty big stretch.


I'd have a hard time hitting any $500+ shock with a hammer though. Ha

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by mike156

I'd have a hard time hitting any $500+ shock with a hammer though. Ha

haha, i'm sorry but i just have to post this meme..

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by mike156

[COLOR=black]
I do know PSI told me that for a street setup, the Ohlins R&T are about the best damper out there. You get a lot for your money and they hold up well. The R&T however are in the price range of the SRCs, those would be a good comparison. That comparison would really come down to spring rates, valving, etc. that is chassis specific. Comparing either to the TTX series or the Penske's is a pretty big stretch.


I'd have a hard time hitting any $500+ shock with a hammer though. Ha

The AST 4150 and 4250 are also about that rage, ready to bolt on.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Also, a lot of the motorsport stuff do not use bumpstops or dustboots, which wouldn't be a great idea here in the mid-atlantic.

- Andy