SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by celica73

I did years ago when I was autocrossing a 7th gen Celica. I had off the shelf koni's converted to double adjustable and revalved at the same time. It took a looonnnngggg time and some pestering to get the shocks done (4 months) and it was fairly expensive.

You also need to know what valving to tell them to use.

was the headach worth it?

[G_Ride]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

the RX8 guys, do they feel it was worth the re-valving cost over using off-the-shelf and fine tuning the rebound according to their butt?

My friends in their CS RX-8 that just had their konis revalved really felt the difference. It was worth the cost for them, especially since they got the konis revalved for free. They had them revalved when another friend brought the konis with him to Lincoln. I think my friends got the hookup for the revalving due to being a friend of friend type of thing. Like celica73 said, you need to know the valving unless the ones doing the revalving have done previous revalving for other BRZs or FRSs. In that case you could ask them to how they've revalved the previous cars.

[Kido1986]

Originally Posted by dwx

I would agree.

I'm still waiting for some factual data on the actual construction of the 235/40/17. From reading in the past about the 195/50/15 the tires do not have an "R" compound underneath. All of the R1Rs use the same tread compounds. What's different is the lower load rating tires have more "soft" compound rubber than the higher load rating tires. The higher load rating tires have 3-4/32" of rubber which extends into the tread block where the lower load rating ones do not. The cheater tires with more soft compound aren't very good full tread depth because they are squirmy due to the soft compound, so people have to shave them for them to be good. The ST guys running them shave them to 5/32".

Ah, I didn't know that. Good to know, and makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by jprice130

I personally hope they only ban the specific sizes that may be "unfair". I actually plan to continue co-driving my friend's Lotus Elise in the new "street" version of Super Stock next season (We've been running SS on Hoosiers this year). The Toyo R1R is the only "Extreme Performance" tire that provides a size that would work decently on the front of the Elise's stock wheels. We need 205/45/16 up front, so the R1R is the only option for us. A couple other manufacturers make 205/50/16, but that sidewall is not the best for the Elise's rake and can mess with the balance of the ABS.

For the rear, we run 245/40/17, so we have plenty of options there. I just wish the ZII, Rivals, RE-11a, RS3 came in a size that worked on the front of the Elise.

So in short, please don't request the R1Rs get completely banned from the new "Street" classes! Hopefully, a decent 200TW tire comes out by 2015 that we can run on the Elise.

I agree and don't plan on asking for any ban on all R1R. Just the cheater versions. It sucks a company keeps sneaking these in. Not playing very fair. Making a tire with a compound softer than it should be for its rating is fine, as long as you admit it. No sneaking it in with existing tires with a harder compound.

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by jprice130

I personally hope they only ban the specific sizes that may be "unfair". I actually plan to continue co-driving my friend's Lotus Elise in the new "street" version of Super Stock next season (We've been running SS on Hoosiers this year). The Toyo R1R is the only "Extreme Performance" tire that provides a size that would work decently on the front of the Elise's stock wheels. We need 205/45/16 up front, so the R1R is the only option for us. A couple other manufacturers make 205/50/16, but that sidewall is not the best for the Elise's rake and can mess with the balance of the ABS.

For the rear, we run 245/40/17, so we have plenty of options there. I just wish the ZII, Rivals, RE-11a, RS3 came in a size that worked on the front of the Elise.

So in short, please don't request the R1Rs get completely banned from the new "Street" classes! Hopefully, a decent 200TW tire comes out by 2015 that we can run on the Elise.

If the proposal goes through as currently written, you will get +/-1" wheel diameter allowance in street, which should give you several 15" options for the front. FYI, the Elise that took 3rd in RTR at nationals had only a front bar, alignment, and aftermarket wheels for prep - stock shocks, stock exhaust, etc.

[jprice130]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

If the proposal goes through as currently written, you will get +/-1" wheel diameter allowance in street, which should give you several 15" options for the front. FYI, the Elise that took 3rd in RTR at nationals had only a front bar, alignment, and aftermarket wheels for prep - stock shocks, stock exhaust, etc.

Yeah, I was paying close attention to that Elise in RTR on the UStream broadcast. I was curious what his prep was, so thanks for sharing. We actually have 2-way adjustable Ohlins shocks and an aftermarket exhaust in addition to a bigger front bar, alignment, and light weight wheels. Nice to see an Elise competitive in RTR with stock shocks and stock exhaust!

Also, thanks for the reminder on the +/- 1" wheel allowance. We have been looking at the various offerings for 15"/17" front wheels/tires and 16"/18" rear wheels/tires, but we already put a significant investment in the wheels we have now, so that would be hard to justify. We could resell I guess, but I think it would be tough to find a buyer and get much of our money back.

[JeffHNY]

Originally Posted by Kido1986

Fellow RTR/C-Street members:

We have an issue at hand. Next year is threatened by a newly found cheater pound R1R (akin to the infamous 195/50/15). It is 235/40/17. I have written the SEB asking them to ban this tire as it requires shaving to the point of giving 30 runs before running out of magic. This magic is actually RCompound rubber underneath the street compound. STX was won by these at Nationals, in an RX8. A class dominated by E36 and twins.

My letter is quoted below. Please do not copy/paste it but use it for talking points for your own letter.

http://crbscca.com/ is the site to write the letter.

A substantial amount of misinformation above that almost comes off as a witch hunt.

Whether the RX-8 was the car or not is debatable. DWX is right as I was second fastest and only a few tenths off Heitkotter Day 2. This with RS3's that arguably had one to many heat cycles and rear shocks on their way out. I also felt I left a ton of time by not attacking the back slaloms. So I had lots to think about going into this year.

In regards to the R1R, there is no magic compound for specific sizes. All Toyo R1R's are made with the same. The tire has been campaigned for years in most STX/STR sizes. 235, 245, 255. First year STR winner was on 255's. Last years fastest Miata Day 2 was on R1R's, 245 I think. Day 1 may have been Z1's. For some reason, I don't think most were paying attention. I've been. In regards to construction, the 195 stands in a league of it's own. It's the only size that doesn't use a base which I've been advised can start anywhere below 2/32 (wear bars) for all other sizes, not necessarily at it. If you look up delamination and Dunlop on google images to see that Z1's may have used a base compound on certain sizes as well. It's not unheard of for tire manufactures to do this.

The tires I won on were poorly shaved by Tirerack. Outside tread blocks are 6/32 and inside are close to 3/32 as they sit now. The used 235 set I started with on the practice course were 2/32 with some areas close to 1/32. Being advised by many Toyo users I needed a new set because of the tire going off around that point I heeded and had a set sent it. Because of the poor job by Tirerack I used one older one with the most tread and three of the new ones for competition.

The R1R is a cheap tire and you can get a very usable life out of them if you set up your car properly for the tire. Not so sure I'd run a stock class car on the R1R though regardless of the size unless you can get a enough camber. At Lincoln the ZII and RS3 seems to be a great option for stock and touring. I know I saw the ZII switch occur in RTR as stated earlier and saw Heitkotter check out on us after session one when he switched to them from Rivals. The Rival was decent until the rubber was laid down and the sun was out. From that point on it felt like a rain event. I had a feeling this may occur and had somewhat of a contingency plan. Everywhere else the Rival has been fine. Even works great in the wet.

One last note, I would be a huge proponent for a spec Street / Street Touring tire. With the new models being released next year its only going to become more frustrating as to choosing the best tire for a given surface and conditions.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

If the proposal goes through as currently written, you will get +/-1" wheel diameter allowance in street, which should give you several 15" options for the front. FYI, the Elise that took 3rd in RTR at nationals had only a front bar, alignment, and aftermarket wheels for prep - stock shocks, stock exhaust, etc.

A Lotus Elise comes stock with adjustable spring perches and the engine is as refined in NA as you're gonna get.. it's stock exhaust is like 2 feet long, not much you can do there haha

also not sure why he needed a front bar, both front and rear bars have 3 holes for adjustment on each side left to right... maybe wasn't enough at stiffest setting? could have adjusted the rear to softest and front to stiffest..


from a technical point of view, the car is VERY well prepped for "stock" competition and honestly doesn't require that much work.

my only petpeve are the different diameter wheels front to back, kinda a bummer.

[jprice130]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

A Lotus Elise comes stock with adjustable spring perches and the engine is as refined in NA as you're gonna get.. it's stock exhaust is like 2 feet long, not much you can do there haha

also not sure why he needed a front bar, both front and rear bars have 3 holes for adjustment on each side left to right... maybe wasn't enough at stiffest setting? could have adjusted the rear to softest and front to stiffest..


from a technical point of view, the car is VERY well prepped for "stock" competition and honestly doesn't require that much work.

my only petpeve are the different diameter wheels front to back, kinda a bummer.

I'm not aware of all the differences between Elise's of recent years, but I can tell you for sure that the 05/06 Elise benefits from a larger than stock Front bar; even on street tires. The stiffest setting on the stock bar is not enough for most AutoX courses. Our bar has 5 settings and we max it out on r-comps. If a course is sweeper heavy, we may soften to the middle setting but that's still stiffer than stock. With R1Rs we still will run the 3rd or 4th stiffest setting.

You're right about the exhaust, there's not much to lose but we did drop 10 lbs with our exhaust and it's good and loud!

[Rexpelagi]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

i posted this question in the suspension forum but will post here in case not everyone reads the other


has anyone here went through the hoops to have a custom-valved koni damper insert made for their car for use with OEM springs?

Why do you feel this is necessary?

[neurokinetik]

Originally Posted by JeffHNY

The R1R is a cheap tire and you can get a very usable life out of them if you set up your car properly for the tire.

How much life is that exactly? I've got 73 runs (plus about 5000 street miles - my STX car is daily driven pretty much exactly as I auto-x it) on my Hankooks so far, and there is still plenty of life left in them (not even at the wear bars yet). I could have gotten quite a bit more out of them if I actually rotated or flipped them (I didn't bother). They are also not looking to be "cycled out" as my results have actually improved in the last couple of events. All this at the cheapest price of all of the competitive tire choices: $153 each.

Of the Hankooks, Dunlops, and Rivals, it seems to be almost a dead heat between which is fastest, and all of them can be run full-tread without them chunking themselves to death. My problem with the Toyos is that it just isn't really a streetable street tire. I got into ST so I didn't have to change tires at an event, and that is exactly what I do.

I like the idea of a "spec tire", but finding a consensus on that tire might be difficult - especially since the best choice might be different for each car.

I'm not convinced the Rivals worth $50 more per tire than the Hankooks (even though most of my competitors who have switched to them have gone faster once they did - but they were previously running Dunlops or Toyos), and I'm not big on the "peakiness" I've heard about with the Dunlops (though I have not driven them). (and I don't even want to consider the expensive-ass Yokohamas - glad to see they've pretty much gone away).

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Rexpelagi

Why do you feel this is necessary?

because i've had off-the-shelf konis before and this time i would like to have a set of dampers all perfectly matched to each other and to the car.

Given that we currently have limited options in terms of damper-only upgrades, if the cost is reasonable it means we'll be that much closer to being optimized for our class without breaking the bank.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by neurokinetik

I'm not convinced the Rivals worth $50 more per tire than the Hankooks (even though most of my competitors who have switched to them have gone faster once they did - but they were previously running Dunlops or Toyos), and I'm not big on the "peakiness" I've heard about with the Dunlops (though I have not driven them). (and I don't even want to consider the expensive-ass Yokohamas - glad to see they've pretty much gone away).

If I had an STX car, I would pick up another set of the Hankooks in a heart beat. But I just do not think they are optimal for the camber challenged stock cars.

[G_Ride]

My friend and I will be trying Rivals. Most of our local events are on asphalt with a few on concrete.

[Rexpelagi]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

because i've had off-the-shelf konis before and this time i would like to have a set of dampers all perfectly matched to each other and to the car.

Given that we currently have limited options in terms of damper-only upgrades, if the cost is reasonable it means we'll be that much closer to being optimized for our class without breaking the bank.

Fair enough, but OTS Konis seem to work quite well as they were already designed for this application.