Element Tuning FRS/BRZ Hydra EMS Stand-Alone Turbo 400 whp Injector Limited

[jamesm]

i've used a hydra on multiple cars in the past (fm miatas) and always loved them. by far the best all-around standalone i've ever owned (comparing to AEM and half dozen megasquirt varieties). if i were to buy another project car, i'd almost definitely use one again if possible.

i say almost definitely because there is one big issue, the reason i wouldn't be interested in using it on my 86. i can just flash my stock ecu, and for all intents and purposes (i'm not a racecar driver) get all of the same benefit for a small fraction of the cost. we're absolutely blessed to have cracked, writeable stock ecus, why on earth would anyone not just do that? all of the extra features listed are things that can be done with the stock ecu.

i'm not arguing there isn't a value proposition here for people on the very edge of the hobby, who actually do this sort of thing competitively and want an advantage, or people who are doing engine swaps, etc. i just can't imagine this being $1000 worth of better than a flashed, stock ecu for the average guy.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by jamesm

i've used a hydra on multiple cars in the past (fm miatas) and always loved them. by far the best all-around standalone i've ever owned (comparing to AEM and half dozen megasquirt varieties). if i were to buy another project car, i'd almost definitely use one again if possible.

i say almost definitely because there is one big issue, the reason i wouldn't be interested in using it on my 86. i can just flash my stock ecu, and for all intents and purposes (i'm not a racecar driver) get all of the same benefit for a small fraction of the cost. we're absolutely blessed to have cracked, writeable stock ecus, why on earth would anyone not just do that? all of the extra features listed are things that can be done with the stock ecu.

i'm not arguing there isn't a value proposition here for people on the very edge of the hobby, who actually do this sort of thing competitively and want an advantage, or people who are doing engine swaps, etc. i just can't imagine this being $1000 worth of better than a flashed, stock ecu for the average guy.

It's really not over a $1000 more than Ecutek at least once you get the flasher, tune, license, map sensor, maf, and have to pay for multiple tunes. I would say the cost is similar but with the Hydra you tune yourself or pick any tuner you like. It's a tangible product that when your done is something you can sell.

From the professional tuners I've talked to there are definitely limits with the OEM ecu and there are also issues with bricking (damaging it) your factory ecu. Much of the lower cost stuff is really limited.

As far as what the OEM ecu can do compared to the latest Hydra, no it can't do the same things, doesn't have near the resolution in tuning, doesn't have a 45 psi map sensor, doesn't have build in speed density tuning. doesn't have the same closed loop fueling strategy (target any AFR at any load or any TPS without having troublesome open loop closed loop delays, doesn't allow boost control without eliminating the purge control, it can't control two fuel pumps independently, it doesn't have anti-lag, it doesn't have a performance and tuneable traction control system, doesn't have the tuning strategy to tune ITBS, and it doesn't have the level of tunable knock control. it doesn't have advanced expressions to program outputs anyway you want, and it can't keep itself from turning driver aids back on while racing.

Now I think the factory ecu is great and will work for many but the Hydra EMS is simply an option for those who need no limits, need to address specific issues they have with the OEM ecu, or want to tune themselves or with any tuner. If free reflash software and OEM reflash solutions really could do it all then we wouldn't have sold thousands and thousands of Hydra to the Subaru and Mazda market. They simply don't work for everyone's setup well.

Now if you haven't used the latest Hydra software or you're curious about it, I urge you to get a copy and explore it. http://www.hydraems.com/software/

[AMR]

Looks good Phil. Keep up the good work.




-Robert

[Element Tuning]

I want someone to do a motor swap with the Hydra. I was thinking about it until I priced out a LS7 Z06 motor...ouch! Maybe if someone donates a V8 to me for the cause

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I want someone to do a motor swap with the Hydra. I was thinking about it until I priced out a LS7 Z06 motor...ouch! Maybe if someone donates a V8 to me for the cause

if you guys need to borrow an innovate car to develop a basetune for and want to leave the hydra in when you're done, i might know a guy

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

if you guys need to borrow an innovate car to develop a basetune for and want to leave the hydra in when you're done, i might know a guy

While we aren't giving out any Hydras we are looking for customers with the various kits (supercharger and turbo) who are close enough to the Washington DC area and willing to give discounts so I can get base maps going.

I really want someone to go all out with a high boost supercharger setup as I know with the Hydra I can make it work amazingly!

[kanundrum]

I know @ptuning is already making 400whp with their kit running water meth, I am sure with the hydra ems setup both working together a monster of a time attack car would be made! haha

[coyote]

There's something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here that I think is really important.

Does anyone here realise that when your car is on the dyno being flashed tuned, a large amount of time (hence money) is spent flashing the ecu? I can take half and hour to try something doing a flashes that can be done in 5 minutes in real time.

Not having to continually stop, save, reflash, restart is a MASSIVE advantage.

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

While we aren't giving out any Hydras we are looking for customers with the various kits (supercharger and turbo) who are close enough to the Washington DC area and willing to give discounts so I can get base maps going.

I really want someone to go all out with a high boost supercharger setup as I know with the Hydra I can make it work amazingly!

Too bad I am 5 hours away Phil, or i'd definitely take you up on the offer. I have unfortunately exhausted all my Maryland trips though from last time with the STi

High boost wouldn't be too high anyway with my Innovate kit, but i'd be curious to see what you could do with it.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by coyote

There's something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here that I think is really important.

Does anyone here realise that when your car is on the dyno being flashed tuned, a large amount of time (hence money) is spent flashing the ecu? I can take half and hour to try something doing a flashes that can be done in 5 minutes in real time.

Not having to continually stop, save, reflash, restart is a MASSIVE advantage.

Yeah I often forget how painful it is to sit and wait to flash an ECU... GTRs used to be horrible. You can definitely get much more done in a 2 hour tuning session when things are adjustable real time for sure.

The Hydra allows real time tuning and no download is required at all. This is really nice as it allows the tuner to drive on the dyno and easily work out any kinks in a particular spot, like cruise areas. I often use this strategy while I'm tuning the cams for cruise, which won't show up on a power pull.

There is also an "Autotune" feature so if you have a load hold feature on the dyno the Hydra will use the WB Target AFR Table and compare it to real time AFRs and make changes to the actual fuel map.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by kanundrum

I know @ptuning is already making 400whp with their kit running water meth, I am sure with the hydra ems setup both working together a monster of a time attack car would be made! haha

Yeah they need to unleash that kit with a Hydra EMS for sure. At least on the shop car to see what it can really do.

I haven't mentioned that we have always had a fully integrated water/meth injections system, the Hydramist. It's really the only system of it's kind as water/meth flow is 3d mapped in the Hydra itself (like how you would control your fuel injectors) so it allows us to run massive nozzles to deliver enough cooling to 700 whp cars but still allows us to come in lightly at lower boost levels without misfiring. The real asset however is that the Hydramist and Hydra combination allows real time map and boost switching. The water flow is always monitored so if you have a condition of low flow (clogged jet, failing pump) or your water/meth flow is too high (hose disconnected) it automatically switches back to the pump gas map and lowers boost in the Hydra. The driver doesn't need to monitor anything or react, it's automatic! Nothing is as safe as that combination.

We most certainly plan to run this on our FRS but since we built our race car in two weeks we decided e85 would be the quickest way to turn up the boost. This is a great and safe way for those who want to run higher boost but don't have access to E85 or don't want to dive into the extensive fuel modifications required to run E85.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Ross]

I would love this for nothing more then real time, it would save so much time when dialing in cam angles at partial throttle.as well as maximizing the fueling and timing maps for partial throttle. Making changes for the full throttle stuff not as big of an issue but there is still considerable time wasted waiting for the flash. As well as true speed density would be nice. I have currently maxed a maf and will be switching to a different maf as I prefer keeping the factory ecu maf based.

[SnapOv3st3r]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I want someone to do a motor swap with the Hydra. I was thinking about it until I priced out a LS7 Z06 motor...ouch! Maybe if someone donates a V8 to me for the cause

There is a video of an LS swapped BRZ. Wonder what EMS setup he is using.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Ross

I would love this for nothing more then real time, it would save so much time when dialing in cam angles at partial throttle.as well as maximizing the fueling and timing maps for partial throttle. Making changes for the full throttle stuff not as big of an issue but there is still considerable time wasted waiting for the flash. As well as true speed density would be nice. I have currently maxed a maf and will be switching to a different maf as I prefer keeping the factory ecu maf based.

You are not kidding, dialing the cams for cruise and part throttle smoothness is a challenge as the problem typically exists in a narrow rpm and load range. I had to drive real time, initiate a hesitation, and then tweak those exact spots (Hydra tracks the map real time so you know exactly at what RPM and load to attack) until I found the happy spot.

Professional tuners will love the Hydra and most certainly see the value in it. I think many customers will exhaust the reflash route, spend $3k on tuning, big mafs, map sensors, dyno time, all before considering to buy a Hydra. Or wait until they brick the OEM ecu.