8 Car Brands Falling Behind.....Scion on the list

[Nevermore]

Am I the only one that thinks that's unimportant information? The differences between this year and last year is only anywhere between 1 and 5 percent. To call that kind of decrease failing seems a bit premature.

[Mandy]

Originally Posted by regal

Scion might become a Toyota "series" more than a brand.

I kinda like this idea, sort of like SRT. The FR-S would be a Toyota Scion FR-S or something to that affect, just like you can have a Dodge SRT Challenger.

It's cheesy, but I think it's a better idea then letting the Scion brand stick around. They had a pretty strong start with the original XB and TC, but everything since then has been rather "meh".

[thill]

Originally Posted by regal

No the auto industry has picked up considerably, that's the whole point of the list from the OP. Even with the "successful" FR-S they are shrinking, to the point that Toyota wants rid of half the dealers. It is true that Scion isn't like Lexus, the car's are titled Make: Toyota :Model Scion-FRS.

Scion might become a Toyota "series" more than a brand.

But Subaru is just holding all the cards from a technical standpoint with this car. They have the FA20Turbo for sale in their legacy and it has no Toyota DI, all Subaru DI. They own/run the plant where the cars are built Just got to think they will leverage that somehow, they could just drop that engine in the BRZ at no price increase. They are a much more successful company than Scion. I tend to think in the last 5 years Scion failed in a similar market they wanted badly that Subaru took a lot of customers they wanted.

Tada's "philosophies" and corporate arraignments are obstacles to this, hopefully Tada will be pragmatic, quit high hoping about flux capacitors and other non-sense and just let Subaru build the car they wanted to in the first place. I mean the entire industry is going DI+Turbo on small 4 cylinders, its a winning formula.

Scion sales are up significantly from 2011 until now. Only because of the FR-S, but they are still down since 2006.

As for Toyota Subaru, you simply don't have the insight to know what contractual agreements exist between the companies. If Subaru drops the FA20 turbo (which my understanding is that they cannot without modification because the engine would sit too low in the FT86) it is more than likely that Toyota could use the same engine in the FR-S/GT86.

There are arguments to be made to stay NA. You may not agree with them, but there are advantages nonetheless. That said, Tada has all but confirmed we will see more power most likely in 2015. And there is always aftermarket which was a big part of the design of the original FT86. They knew people that wanted to mod these cars would do it, and in many cases, factory turbos don't stay stock for long in the tuner market. But these tuners are a small minority. For 95%+ of the people who bought this car, it is unlikely it will ever see FI. Because it is good enough for most people.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Mandy

I kinda like this idea, sort of like SRT. The FR-S would be a Toyota Scion FR-S or something to that affect, just like you can have a Dodge SRT Challenger.

It's cheesy, but I think it's a better idea then letting the Scion brand stick around. They had a pretty strong start with the original XB and TC, but everything since then has been rather "meh".

If they are going to kill it off, then kill it off. Most of the Scion cars have been unforgettable at best.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Nevermore

Am I the only one that thinks that's unimportant information? The differences between this year and last year is only anywhere between 1 and 5 percent. To call that kind of decrease failing seems a bit premature.

I think the argument is that sales are down significantly since the peak in 2006. That said, there are some obvious reasons. Outside of the FR-S, the Scion lineup is stale and weak.

The xb and xd had been big sellers for the brand and they have not been updated significantly since 2007 or so. They are stale. Just updating those models and being competitive in the space could result in sales being the highest ever for the brand.

[Turbowned]

I just hope if Scion goes down the cars aren't taken with it. Scion cars are good cars plagued by weak marketing. I'd hate to see the FR-S go the way of the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky. Any Scion would sell just fine if not a little better with a Toyota badge on it. Though I don't see Toyota axing the brand any time soon simply because they're still selling. Even though sales are weak comparatively, these cars are sold globally so it's not like they're putting all the effort into selling in just the United States. We're a big market but the rest of the world is bigger.

On a side note, I feel like Toyota is probably losing money on FR-S's considering how much the GT86/86's sell for in every other part of the globe.

Whoever suggested a Scion MR2 or Scion Supra needs to keep their opinions to themself. Jussayin.

[mwjcyber]

^ @thill Exactly

To add fact to my prior statement that "No way Scion's around in 5 years." lets look at this rationally.

1. Automakers are having a record year, meanwhile Scion's sales are falling, and without the FRS they'd be tragic.
2. Scion makes up only 3% of Toyota's sales, and now defunct auto brands have shown us at Scion's current sales numbers, they're losing Toyota money.
3. Toyota's letting dealers walk away from Scion, and no new models or refreshes are planned for the near future.
4. Then there's the whole being ranked dead last in JD Power rankings debacle.
5. Scion's target demographic is still largely underemployed or unemployed, and lots that do have jobs cant afford a new car or as the media has pointed out repeatedly, they're choosing not to spend money on cars.

Strategically Scion doesn't buy Toyota anything anymore. At this point it's only losing money, its image is tarnished, and its customer base is thin. Other automakers have proven lower end segments such as Scion aren't necessary. Nissan, Honda, Ford and GM are doing just fine without one.

Sounds like an auto brand that's on its way out.


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"New car sales jumped 17 percent to 1.5 million in August, their highest level in more than six years. Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Honda, Chrysler and General Motors all posted double-digit gains over last August."

Auto Sales Rebound to Pre-Recession Levels
ABCnews - September 4, 2013
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireS...ugust-20151467

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"Toyota has tried practically everything, but it looks like the Scion brand finally is running out of gas. So the company is going to let dealers walk away from this once-promising marque without penalty."

"Scion sales were only 41,300 vehicles through July of this year, down by nearly 2 percent from a year ago. And July sales were down by 9 percent year-to-year."

"Scion’s early product successes encouraged more Toyota dealers to jump into the game. Now, many of them are wishing they hadn’t."

Toyota Allows Dealers To Walk Away From Sagging Scion Brand
Forbes - Aug 19, 2013
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss...scion-brand-2/

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"Scion sales through August were down 1.6 percent from a year earlier. At this pace, this year's Scion sales will be only about 40 percent of that of the brand's peak year in 2006."

No new Scion models soon despite falling US sales: Toyota executive
Reuters-Sep 5, 2013
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...98414120130905

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"The share of new cars purchased by those aged 18-34 dropped 30% in the last five years"

"Some say the economy is mostly to blame, but others say the trend could be part of larger social shifts. One reason is demographic: The re-urbanization of America is giving more people access to public transportation. But mostly it's the explosion of social media. Car ownership just may not be as socially important as it used to be."

Young Americans ditch the car
CNN Money - September 17, 2012
http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/17/news...ars/index.html

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Quoted from article; I don't understand this statement. The FR-S is Scion's best selling car - over 25k units a year. Did they expect it to sell more? Seems like a huge sales success IMO.

Oh wait, they meant they thought the FR-S would boost the entire line's image. Well that's just dumb.

It only sold 17k and change in the first 12 months under the Scion name and 6k and change under the Subaru name. Combine it's 24.5k units in one year. For reference a Camaro averages 80k a year, a Mustang averages 72k a year and a Challenger averages 45k a year. The only coupe the FRS/BRZ is beating is a Gencoupe in sales.


http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...ubaru-brz.html

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

It only sold 17k and change in the first 12 months under the Scion name and 6k and change under the Subaru name. Combine it's 24.5k units in one year. For reference a Camaro averages 80k a year, a Mustang averages 72k a year and a Challenger averages 45k a year. The only coupe the FRS/BRZ is beating is a Gencoupe in sales.


http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...ubaru-brz.html

You can't compare the Twins with those... The Camaro, mustang and Challenger all have years of history dating back to the 60's era and any 2 bit fool will know what they are.

The Twins are basically unknown newcomers, any 2 bit fool won't know what the fuck it is.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

I just hope if Scion goes down the cars aren't taken with it. Scion cars are good cars plagued by weak marketing. I'd hate to see the FR-S go the way of the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky. Any Scion would sell just fine if not a little better with a Toyota badge on it. Though I don't see Toyota axing the brand any time soon simply because they're still selling. Even though sales are weak comparatively, these cars are sold globally so it's not like they're putting all the effort into selling in just the United States. We're a big market but the rest of the world is bigger.

On a side note, I feel like Toyota is probably losing money on FR-S's considering how much the GT86/86's sell for in every other part of the globe.

Whoever suggested a Scion MR2 or Scion Supra needs to keep their opinions to themself. Jussayin.

Except that Toyota isn't associated with anything "cool" "hip" "stylish" "fun" or "exciting" anymore. At least not in the states. It's the company that makes your mom's minivan, your dad's Camry, and the hipster eco Prius.

The MR2 sold just OK, especially in the states, where it averaged around 10,000 units per year throughout two generations from '84-'95. The MR-S/MR2 Spyder faired significantly worse, averaging a mere 4,300 units per year from '00-'05.

Now we look at something like the Scion tC, which sold an average of four times as many units per year between '04-'12. That's an average of 40,500 per year with a peak of over 79,000 units in 2006 alone. That's more than the entire lifespan of the 2nd and 3rd gen MR2's combined in the states.

http://mr2wiki.com/AllModels/WorldwideProductionNumbers
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

By the way, curious about the MKIV Supra, '93-'98? 11,239 units over the entire lifespan. As in less than the 11,417 units of FR-S that were sold in the first year alone. And if you combine FR-S with BRZ for introduction-to-date, it's nearly 35,000 units, or more than three times that of the Supra.

http://mkiv.com/specifications/sales...ail_sales.html
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...=sales+numbers

And people wonder why Scion exists?

The marketing works for them and Scions are systematically selling better than Toyota counterparts in America.

[mwjcyber]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

Except that Toyota isn't associated with anything "cool" "hip" "stylish" "fun" or "exciting" anymore. At least not in the states. It's the company that makes your mom's minivan, your dad's Camry, and the hipster eco Prius.

That's exactly why Toyota's developing the next Supra, because they want to re-invigorate the brand and make it exciting again in North America. Btw, Scion's a North American only brand, so what happens to it once Toyota's cool again?

• "It’s no secret that Toyota president Akio Toyoda has been pushing for a new Supra."
• "Tada admitted that Toyoda has asked him to spearhead the project and develop the Supra successor “as soon as possible.”
• "Tada says the next MR2 would likely launch after the Supra and would slot below the Toyota 86 in the automaker’s sports car hierarchy."
• “So this is a new business model,” Tada said to AsiaOne.com. “When customers buy a car, it creates a new bond between the manufacturer and the owner – we do not just profit from selling the car.”

http://wot.motortrend.com/toyota-gt8...#axzz2eM1rymr6

The last bullet demonstrates Toyota's vision of lifetime buyers, whereas Scion's always been marketed as your first car, which contradicts Toyota's current approach to business.

It doesn't make financial or business sense for Toyota to continue Scion, when they can bring the FRS over as the GT86, tC as the Celica, and dump everything else; resulting in a more diverse portfolio of vehicles.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by mwjcyber

That's exactly why Toyota's developing the next Supra, because they want to re-invigorate the brand and make it exciting again in North America. Btw, Scion's a North American only brand, so what happens to it once Toyota's cool again?

• "It’s no secret that Toyota president Akio Toyoda has been pushing for a new Supra."
• "Tada admitted that Toyoda has asked him to spearhead the project and develop the Supra successor “as soon as possible.”
• "Tada says the next MR2 would likely launch after the Supra and would slot below the Toyota 86 in the automaker’s sports car hierarchy."
• “So this is a new business model,” Tada said to AsiaOne.com. “When customers buy a car, it creates a new bond between the manufacturer and the owner – we do not just profit from selling the car.”

http://wot.motortrend.com/toyota-gt8...#axzz2eM1rymr6

The last bullet demonstrates Toyota's vision of lifetime buyers, whereas Scion's always been marketed as your first car, which contradicts Toyota's current approach to business.

It doesn't make financial or business sense for Toyota to continue Scion, when they can bring the FRS over as the GT86, tC as the Celica, and dump everything else; resulting in a more diverse portfolio of vehicles.

It makes absolute perfect sense for them to release BOTH of those cars under the Scion branding. Continue to push "reasonable" "eco friendly" "high MPG" and "reliable" through the Toyota brand and put the exciting, interesting, fun cars under the Scion brand. Why would you want to introduce a stylish, powerful sports car under a company name who's flagship vehicle is a Prius playing the "I want my MPG" song?

Even the Celica couldn't hit tC-level sales, peaking in 2000 at 52,000 units, but falling off significantly from 2003-2005 (14k, 8k, 3k units) before it was discontinued entirely due to poor sales. Weird, because right around that time, Scion tC sales were flying through the roof, even though the Celica is technically a better car (and this is coming from a tC owner of 8 years). Even at it's lowest year, at the peak of a recession, the tC was moving 15k units a year.

Marketing is probably the single most powerful tool in trying to sell things, and right now, given the exponential success of the tC and FR-S over old Toyota "sports" and "sporty" cars, it would be marketing genius to put a new MR2 and Supra under Scion.

[4agze]

If Scion gets cut no love lost here,

[Sonolin]

I'm sorry, but I would never buy a "Scion" Supra. I don't know if Toyota would introduce the Supra under Scion, at least I'd personally hope not.