8 Car Brands Falling Behind.....Scion on the list

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

Interesting. The company (well, Scion) is down 2%. Wonder how much longer it's going to hold on? I wonder if the 2015 will be a "Toyota FRS" like so many have predicted on these forums. The FRS may very well be Scion's Swan Song.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/8-car-...99.html?page=3

Yahoo finance.. Now there's an authoritative source on car companies..
Sales and percentages fluctuate all the time.. It takes a desperate columnist to come up with something sensational to print.. The FRS has been scions biggest seller for the brand.. I'm sure many at Toyota view it as a complete success.. It all depends on how you look at it.. I think Toyota succeeded in making a brand that delivers entry level cars at value pricing.. It removed the stigma that people had associating boring appliance like cars with its brand..

[thill]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Yeah they should make Scion a full line up of sports cars. Like Porsche (pre VW involvement) just less expensive

baby FR-S
FR-S
supercharged FR-S
RWD sedan based off FR-S platform
Supra (or cheaper version of Supra if it's branded Toyota)
RWD sedan based off Supra

cha-ching!

I think this is a smart idea.

[regal]

Originally Posted by thill

Most of your statements are BS. The FT86 has received nothing but praise across the globe. Toyota desperately needed to inject passion and enthusiasm back in their lineup and Tada completely pulled it off with the FT86. Your snide remarks about him are tiring, ridiculous, and unfounded. Sales are as strong as ever for these cars and, as I mentioned, Consumer Reports rates it a top pick and they certainly consider reliability when making those selections.

90% of the things you have to say about this car are condescending and negative. You need to sell it. You clearly don't love your car. The reality, for me, is that it has been a rock since the day I drove it off the lot. It is everything I expected it to be and, if your main priority was a bullet proof car you probably should not have bought the first model year of a brand new platform.

It is just a car. If it makes you this bitter sell it and get something different.

Bitter has nothing to do with it, you calling less than <40k cars sold a success is way premature. This car has a long way to go before it can be called a success. It is a tiny volume of Toyotas total sales. Even Honda couldn't support the S2k, they admitted to losing money on every sale. I seriously doubt the FRS is profitable.

Sales will have to at least double for Scion to have any chance of surviving. Its just the reality of the auto industry.

No way I am selling my car so get over that, there's nothing like it for $25k. But I don't drink the cool-aide, the hand writing is on the wall for Scion. I have nothing against the Scion brand but this is just painfully obvious business reality.

The car has a much better chance for survival by branding it what it is : A Subaru. Toyota is holding the car back with Tada not allowing Subaru to drop in their FA20T and I would hate to see the slow sports car image slowly kill off the car.

Its going to be a win-win for anyone who likes these cars when Scion is written off and Subaru takes full ownership of the car, I don't know why you are so defensive.

[frs10]

im pretty sure toyota will rehaul before they get rid of a brand completely... especially after the announcement of all these new scion cars...

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by regal

Bitter has nothing to do with it, you calling less than <40k cars sold a success is way premature. This car has a long way to go before it can be called a success. It is a tiny volume of Toyotas total sales. Even Honda couldn't support the S2k, they admitted to losing money on every sale. I seriously doubt the FRS is profitable.

Sales will have to at least double for Scion to have any chance of surviving. Its just the reality of the auto industry.

No way I am selling my car so get over that, there's nothing like it for $25k. But I don't drink the cool-aide, the hand writing is on the wall for Scion. I have nothing against the Scion brand but this is just painfully obvious business reality.

The car has a much better chance for survival by branding it what it is : A Subaru. Toyota is holding the car back with Tada not allowing Subaru to drop in their FA20T and I would hate to see the slow sports car image slowly kill off the car.

Its going to be a win-win for anyone who likes these cars when Scion is written off and Subaru takes full ownership of the car, I don't know why you are so defensive.

Not that I totally disagree with you, but by which metric would you say a new affordable sports car is a success? The original Mustang sold 1 million units in it's first 18 months. Is that your measuring stick?

30k combined units (FRS & BRZ) in its first year in the US is a sales success to me. That's more than double what the S2000 ever sold. It's also way more than any other sports car I can think of except the Corvette, Camaro or Mustang (calling the last 2 sports cars is pushing it too).

[thill]

[quote]

Originally Posted by regal

Bitter has nothing to do with it, you calling less than <40k cars sold a success is way premature. This car has a long way to go before it can be called a success. It is a tiny volume of Toyotas total sales. Even Honda couldn't support the S2k, they admitted to losing money on every sale. I seriously doubt the FRS is profitable.

The volume argument is ridiculous. This car was never meant to sell more than 20-25K vehicles per year in the US (combined FR-S/BRZ sales). This car was never about selling 100K cars a year in North America. As I mentioned the whole point of the car was to inject more passion, youth, and enthusiasm back in the lineup. The praise and recognition the car has received for Toyota, Tada, and Subaru is worth more than you realize. Toyota surely knows this as it appears they are moving forward to have two more sports cars enter the lineup. So yes, it is a success whether you like it or not, otherwise Toyota would be pulling the plug on the FT86, and would not be moving forward with introducing more sports cars.

The FT86 platform is selling far more cars than the S2K ever did in a single year. They are priced differently. Many of the parts are off the shelf. I suspect that are making money on the car, that said, even if they broke even it would be a success for the reasons stated above.

Sales will have to at least double for Scion to have any chance of surviving. Its just the reality of the auto industry.

That won't happen unless Toyota does something about the lineup. I don't think the Scion brand is a problem, the problem is their car lineup. Outside of the FR-S and TC, it is horrible. If Toyota wants to save the brand they can. If they want it to wilt away and die they can do that to.

No way I am selling my car so get over that, there's nothing like it for $25k. But I don't drink the cool-aide, the hand writing is on the wall for Scion. I have nothing against the Scion brand but this is just painfully obvious business reality.

The car has a much better chance for survival by branding it what it is : A Subaru. Toyota is holding the car back with Tada not allowing Subaru to drop in their FA20T and I would hate to see the slow sports car image slowly kill off the car.

Its going to be a win-win for anyone who likes these cars when Scion is written off and Subaru takes full ownership of the car, I don't know why you are so defensive.

None of this makes sense. The Toyota or Scion brand is not holding the car back. Sales in year two are better than ever. I don't think branding the car 100% Subaru would change that, and it would never happen due to the investment Toyota made and the praise and recognition they continue to receive for the car.

More power has all been but confirmed and I am sure it has been part of the plan all along. Once the competition heats up in the next year or two and sales peak, you will see Toyota and Subaru counter with more power.

In the meantime, there is the aftermarket for those that cannot wait.

[DarkSunrise]

Sales of the FR-S and BRZ have met/exceeded Toyota and Subaru's expectations for the first year. It is already more successful than they had hoped.

There's a reason Tada has been asked to lead the new Supra project, and it's not because the FR-S/BRZ have been financial failures.

[thill]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Not that I totally disagree with you, but by which metric would you say a new affordable sports car is a success? The original Mustang sold 1 million units in it's first 18 months. Is that your measuring stick?

30k combined units (FRS & BRZ) in its first year in the US is a sales success to me. That's more than double what the S2000 ever sold. It's also way more than any other sports car I can think of except the Corvette, Camaro or Mustang (calling the last 2 sports cars is pushing it too).

If Subaru and Toyota wanted to sell 50K FT86's a year in the US they easily could. They would just build more and then offer incentives to buyers if they started sitting on the lot.

Clearly that is not their plan. They are selling these cars almost as fast as they can make them right now. Pretty good problem to have unless you are regal....

[regal]

Originally Posted by thill

I think this is a smart idea.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Not that I totally disagree with you, but by which metric would you say a new affordable sports car is a success? The original Mustang sold 1 million units in it's first 18 months. Is that your measuring stick?

30k combined units (FRS & BRZ) in its first year in the US is a sales success to me. That's more than double what the S2000 ever sold. It's also way more than any other sports car I can think of except the Corvette, Camaro or Mustang (calling the last 2 sports cars is pushing it too).

I said its too early to call it a success. Look at any new sports car and the first two years are stronger then they drop like a rock then the car is killed, pretty much what happened to the last Toyota sports car. The only affordable small rwd sports car that has been a success is the Miata. All the others couldn't maintain profitability which is why companies design and build cars: to make money.

[thill]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Sales of the FR-S and BRZ have met/exceeded Toyota and Subaru's expectations for the first year. It is already more successful than they had hoped.

There's a reason Tada has been asked to lead the new Supra project, and it's not because the FR-S/BRZ have been financial failures.

Not only that if the FT86 was a failure for Toyota they certainly would not be looking at more engine options and be discussing the next generation.

If the car was a failure as claimed Toyota would pull the plug and would never move forward with improvements and a next generation of the car.

Someone is letting their bitterness of the car cloud their judgement.

[thill]

Originally Posted by regal

I said its too early to call it a success. Look at any new sports car and the first two years are stronger then they drop like a rock then the car is killed, pretty much what happened to the last Toyota sports car. The only affordable small rwd sports car that has been a success is the Miata. All the others couldn't maintain profitability which is why companies design and build cars: to make money.

LOL, have you looked at Miata sales over the last 10 years.. That is North America alone.

Mazda has not sold more than 10K Miatas in a single year since 2008 in NA...

Globally? The FT86 is probably outselling it 4:1 right now easy.

[regal]

Originally Posted by thill

Not only that if the FT86 was a failure for Toyota they certainly would not be looking at more engine options and be discussing the next generation.

If the car was a failure as claimed Toyota would pull the plug and would never move forward with improvements and a next generation of the car.

Someone is letting their bitterness of the car cloud their judgement.

No someone is making a leap of faith based on commentary by a young designer who gives a good sales pitch. There are no guarantees, cars come and go. None of us know what will happen, but certainly neither Toyota or Subaru are selling dividends from the "success" of this car. I hope this car is the next Miata but it has a long way to go and the Scion brand issues are an obstacle. To not see that is some sort of denial.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by BlueDubbinTDI

If Scion is failing it kinda blows my mind how Toyota does so well in the first place. NONE of the cars from the entire brand look/feel/perform that great except for the FR-S and maybe the Tundra, the new tC was getting there as long as you smoked the tails. But seriously...what about the Camry sells this brand so well?

The non-enthusiasts, just care about point A to point B transportation and not the driver feel or handling to it, as long as its soft and comfortable, that is the large market here in america. Plus toyota already has a reputation as a reliable manufacturer so they buy a camry for the future I guess. I do hope when (not if) when scion goes belly up, they throw the FR-S into the toyota lineup.

[tacoss23]

No surprise here.

Outside the FR-S, Scion really doesn't have anything special out there for their very niche demographic.

Every other car in their line up falls behind of what the competition has to offer.

That's assuming you get past the badge, which let's face it.....nobody (that cares about it) will chose a Scion over a similarly priced Honda, Nissan, VW.

Toyota made a bad decision with Scion...plain and simple.

They created a brand to attract "young buyers" that they lost in the past 2 decades...the problem wasn't Toyota (the brand), the problem was that their cars. They stopped making fun cars that appeal younger buyers. The fact that they thought the brand had a problem and not their cars is the reason Scion is doing bad.

Let's face it, who will buy a Scion FR-S if we had a Toyota GT-86 right next to it? (assuming equal pricing, promos, etc)

Given the choice, I believe most Scion owners would chose Toyota.