WingsofWar Aero Kit Design

[WingsofWar]

Remember guys...this is not a Photoshop thread. Also I want to remind some of you about the concept design industry. Many of us in the professional field are NOT engineers, however many of us work with engineers all the time. Because the fields are so different we designers always clash with engineers because of FORM vs FUNCTION aka Left Brained individuals vs right brained individuals.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Hood venting. Purely functional, louvers on top where the low pressure zone is. Couple this with a sealed front undertray and you increase cooling capacity, and reduce lift/increase downforce. With testing of how it affects cooling, you could maybe even make the grille section smaller to reduce a bit more drag.

Thanks I agree with reverse hood venting, but since i will not be making any hoods, i will not be designing any hoods..there for all my renders will have stock hood placements.

I'm curious about small air guides running along the 'corners'/edge of the roof and hood. I saw this on a British hill-climb car of a guy who worked for a wind tunnel over there. They were only ~1" and the theory/testing said they kept the air from the top of the car from spilling to the sides and creating more turbulence/drag which also helped downforce. If you have access to CFD that could be something to look into.

Iv been working with some Boeing engineers about the design and they say the stock body is at times stubborn across the body. To give you a clue why they said this, the block shape of the vehicle is too slippery which is actually a negative. They proposed that the car needs more drag to function better as a performance car. So to achieve a .27 cd they have to move/channel the path of air certain places to create more drag. hence the roof and paths around the hood/fenders which move and channel air. Did you know those big blocky mirrors on the frs/brz is actually functional aero . Basically what iv gathered is that even the riciest bodykits that dont look functional at all..could for this car, potentially add function.

Originally Posted by blur

WUT I thought the whole purpose of this kit is functional aero . . . this is for HPDE cars, not some wanna be's man... otherwise what's the point...

As a designer..not an engineer, there is a level of which the car needs to function aesthetically. As a Engineer there is a level of which the car needs to function mechanically. The two ideals do not always meet together, infact many times they in a state of repulsion.

So if you missed the very first post or just forgot, the purpose of this kit was to offer an aftermarket design to an OEM solution. Which should not be misconstrued with HPDE purpose body kits. A full HPDE kit designed by me with pure function as the ideal would look similar to the BRZ GT300. Which is completely on the other side of the spectrum aka there is a limit i need to set on how functional it needs to be before the prices are driven up due to complications and computation..and then there will be no money to be made. Now im already out of my comfort zone building a good looking kit with functional engineering qualities, and normally we artist don't seek help from engineers for our art direction. But in this case iv been blessed with some help and iv seen some CFD elements for the BRZ but not a full flow diagram yet.

[ft86Fan]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

(now bare with me..it gets kinda rough)

What kind of sick ideas do you have in your dirty mind?

[Snoopyalien24]

If it works, or has the same coef. drag, then why not? I mean damn, Toyobaru got some good looking functional bumpers, why can't anyone else?

[blur]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

As a designer..not an engineer, there is a level of which the car needs to function aesthetically. As a Engineer there is a level of which the car needs to function mechanically. The two ideals do not always meet together, infact many times they in a state of repulsion.

So if you missed the very first post or just forgot, the purpose of this kit was to offer an aftermarket design to an OEM solution. Which should not be misconstrued with HPDE purpose body kits. A full HPDE kit designed by me with pure function as the ideal would look similar to the BRZ GT300. Which is completely on the other side of the spectrum aka there is a limit i need to set on how functional it needs to be before the prices are driven up due to complications and computation..and then there will be no money to be made. Now im already out of my comfort zone building a good looking kit with functional engineering qualities, and normally we artist don't seek help from engineers for our art direction. But in this case iv been blessed with some help and iv seen some CFD elements for the BRZ but not a full flow diagram yet.

It's as simple as not finding fog lights a necessity. Especially if you have HIDs, I find them quite useless. IMO a brake cooling kit is a much better option for this car, and will surely raise a few eyebrows for the integrated design.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter, keep doing what youre doin

[serialk11r]

Dimman, remember the channel in the roof? I think it does what you are describing sorta. You are talking about "winglets" though right? On planes the vertical piece at the end of the tip reduces induced drag by cutting off most of the path from which the air from the bottom can flow to the air on top.

I don't know how much this does for a car though. Gotta think about it some more. I feel like it won't be very useful because 1. bottom of the car experiences ground effects, so it's actually a low pressure zone on an aerodynamic car 2. I think a good proportion of the air hitting the windshield (so to speak) is deflected to the side, so the pressure difference between the top and the sides of the car is not very big.

As far as aerodynamic add ons go, IMO the first thing to be done is to cover up suspension components on the bottom, and add a large diffuser, and side skirts. If flow separation is bad at the rear, I'm not sure what can be done, but vortex generators + correctly placed wing seems to be what they typically do.

Oh and form vs. function, an example would be the wheels. If wheels were enclosed in fairings with specially designed brake cooling, they would reduce drag by a large amount and reduce lift by some significant quantity as well. However people like seeing the big brakes :/

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by blur

It's as simple as not finding fog lights a necessity. Especially if you have HIDs, I find them quite useless. IMO a brake cooling kit is a much better option for this car, and will surely raise a few eyebrows for the integrated design.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter, keep doing what youre doin

Exactly! but those options are solely for the user, not for me to determine . Like i said before those areas are best open and ducted for brake cooling in HPDE. But as a show car or street car and for those who want that OEM foglight. I want to leave it as an option. Usefulness is determined by the tuner.

Lets take this scenario..Bob, Jim and Tom buy my front bumper and Lip at a group buy. Bob takes my kit, deletes the OEM foglights and shroud and makes his own brake ducting for $20. Jim takes my kit and plugs in his OEM shrould and foglights for $0. Tom sells my bumper but uses my front lip on his OEM bumper and uses it for a small track day.

Did i do anyone an injustice by leaving it? or not designing a better option?
I really hope you get why I left the foglights alone for the sake of the render and for the sake of the general tuner who may or may not use it for racing purposes.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Dimman, remember the channel in the roof? I think it does what you are describing sorta. You are talking about "winglets" though right? On planes the vertical piece at the end of the tip reduces induced drag by cutting off most of the path from which the air from the bottom can flow to the air on top.

Are we talking about Vortex Generators? now im confused....

I don't know how much this does for a car though. Gotta think about it some more. I feel like it won't be very useful because 1. bottom of the car experiences ground effects, so it's actually a low pressure zone on an aerodynamic car 2. I think a good proportion of the air hitting the windshield (so to speak) is deflected to the side, so the pressure difference between the top and the sides of the car is not very big.

There is a pretty distinct pressure increase at the bottom (front) of the windshield yes...at the center of the windshield as air travels up towards the rear and air velocity increases as air pressure decreases. As Pressure decreases, air breaks apart and spreads. By consolidating the airflow by adding channels on the roof as seen on the BRZ/86 we shink the volume which air can travel and we can retain good air velocity towards the rear of the car, which eventually minimizes detachment..which minimizes lift, which would make a rear spoiler more effective.

On each side of the windshield you see a somewhat similar pressure difference from top to bottom, but as air travels rearward it migrates to lower pressures found in the A pillar because the windshield is not straight its curved. Air should not be deflected away from the body. It can cause lift. Air should be directed in a smooth manner in a natural way. Those side mirrors actually help air travel towards the spoiler.

[blur]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Exactly! but those options are solely for the user, not for me to determine . Like i said before those areas are best open and ducted for brake cooling in HPDE. But as a show car or street car and for those who want that OEM foglight. I want to leave it as an option. Usefulness is determined by the tuner.

Lets take this scenario..Bob, Jim and Tom buy my front bumper and Lip at a group buy. Bob takes my kit, deletes the OEM foglights and shroud and makes his own brake ducting for $20. Jim takes my kit and plugs in his OEM shrould and foglights for $0. Tom sells my bumper but uses my front lip on his OEM bumper and uses it for a small track day.

Did i do anyone an injustice by leaving it? or not designing a better option?
I really hope you get why I left the foglights alone for the sake of the render and for the sake of the general tuner who may or may not use it for racing purposes.

I get it Wings, I was just bringing up the fact that an integrated brake cooling system would be cool. Maybe someone else will take a shot at it, as theres already the TRD brake cooling setup.

[serialk11r]

No Wow, this is what I was talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_device
I think on a car this effect doesn't really exist because the pressure transition is very gradual along the vertical side of the body. By deflected to the side I meant it flows around the side of the car.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

No Wow, this is what I was talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_device
I think on a car this effect doesn't really exist because the pressure transition is very gradual along the vertical side of the body. By deflected to the side I meant it flows around the side of the car.

ahh ok...yeah your right. im dumb

Cars generally don't really have that kind of effect. Formula 1 though....now thats a different story.

[serialk11r]

Well the body itself as I said doesn't experience much of this force, but you see these wingtip devices on wings for F1 and even regular track cars. When you have low and high pressure zones right next to each other, if the air spills over, that's BAD.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Dimman, remember the channel in the roof? I think it does what you are describing sorta. You are talking about "winglets" though right? On planes the vertical piece at the end of the tip reduces induced drag by cutting off most of the path from which the air from the bottom can flow to the air on top.

I don't know how much this does for a car though. Gotta think about it some more. I feel like it won't be very useful because 1. bottom of the car experiences ground effects, so it's actually a low pressure zone on an aerodynamic car 2. I think a good proportion of the air hitting the windshield (so to speak) is deflected to the side, so the pressure difference between the top and the sides of the car is not very big.

As far as aerodynamic add ons go, IMO the first thing to be done is to cover up suspension components on the bottom, and add a large diffuser, and side skirts. If flow separation is bad at the rear, I'm not sure what can be done, but vortex generators + correctly placed wing seems to be what they typically do.

Oh and form vs. function, an example would be the wheels. If wheels were enclosed in fairings with specially designed brake cooling, they would reduce drag by a large amount and reduce lift by some significant quantity as well. However people like seeing the big brakes :/

No. Think of two (one on each side) small ~1" tall vane running the longitudinally the length of the hood and roof on the outside edges of the car. Where the 'corners' would be (looking at the front) if cars were actually square. Make any sense? The height probably has some relation to the boundary layer on the surface.

They are not vortex generators, as they are not made to enhance flow to a wing/delay separation. The purpose seems to be to separate the flow going over the car (important for lift AND drag), from the flow going around the sides (mostly just drag).

As for the Boeing engineers saying you need MORE drag on a sports car, get a second opinion. Seriously. Or at least double check if they are not over-simplifying things because they don't think non-aircraft engineers understand or correlate drag with negative lift/downforce. The car aerodynamicists are always shooting for the highest efficiency (as well as balance/keeping center of pressure close to center of mass) for their target downforce. Which means the LEAST POSSIBLE amount of drag for their target downforce. If they could get no drag, they would do it.

But usually their downforce levels generate drag levels/Cd that are higher than typical production cars. So if they mean that a sports-car needs more drag because race-cars have more drag from their downforce production, ok. But just more drag for the sake of it is ridiculous.

(You also may want to remind them about the fact that a car is running in basically ground-effect, and do their direction changes through their tires, too.)

[serialk11r]

I know you're not talking about vortex generators, and yes that is exactly what I had in mind. Imagine the body of the car is a very very fat, horribly inefficient wing, and you put vertical extensions on the sides just like on a plane. You get exactly what you were describing. The channel in the roof serves to reduce frontal area, but it does what those vanes would do, just on a smaller scale.

Ironically, when you talk about fluid dynamics everything is a matter of scale or something like that so...lol. But as I understand it, encouraging more air to flow over the top would seem to produce more lift...

I mentioned vortex generators as something that would be useful if there was flow separation at the back. It was 2 paragraphs down, why would anyone think that it was related

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I know you're not talking about vortex generators, and yes that is exactly what I had in mind. Imagine the body of the car is a very very fat, horribly inefficient wing, and you put vertical extensions on the sides just like on a plane. You get exactly what you were describing. The channel in the roof serves to reduce frontal area, but it does what those vanes would do, just on a smaller scale.

Gotcha.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Dimman

So if they mean that a sports-car needs more drag because race-cars have more drag from their downforce production, ok.

Basically this...they(or he actually) said the cars basic shape is too slippery for a performance car. Wondering if people will be ok if they bump up the power levels over 300-400hp and start to feel like the car is too light in the rear. Need to harness that wind power to stay planted.