Chassis Brace Priority

[xclusive_brett]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Did you seriously claim a 3 second improvement in lap times from a strut brace??

why does everyone keep assuming that all they sell are strut bars, look at their site and their different offerings for vehicles before you bash people...

[xwd]

Some chassis braces help, especially ones which tie suspension points together which are prone to flex. So I'm not going to poo poo on chassis braces.

However, please don't come on here and treat people like they are stupid. Don't make claims about chassis bracing improving the lap time of a car 3 seconds. Don't brag about a Fiesta ST beating EVOs, STIs, etc. in autocross "due to the addition of chassis bracing." If it beat those cars it beat them because it was driven better, period. It really takes away your credibility from the getgo.

Look at other vendors on here like Hancha, Raceseng, RacerX, etc. Those guys back up their designs with engineering, including FEA analysis, etc. which they are willing to share.

[Symmetrical]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Did you seriously claim a 3 second improvement in lap times from a strut brace??

He said after "brace work" which could mean many.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by xclusive_brett

why does everyone keep assuming that all they sell are strut bars, look at their site and their different offerings for vehicles before you bash people...

the problem is that dropping 3 seconds off a course as short as adams is that it is a serious jump. you have to forgive people for being skeptical considering that nobody here has ever seen a 3 second from braces only in the entire collective of our experiences. especially on such a modern car.

[mrk1]

Originally Posted by dwx

Look at other vendors on here like Hancha, Raceseng, RacerX, etc. Those guys back up their designs with engineering, including FEA analysis, etc. which they are willing to share.

Software makes lots of pretty colors, but all parts still get tested in physical form. So if a company doesn't have access to software and goes with testing multiple physical parts thats just another method of reaching an effective product. There is more then one way to skin a cat.

Anyone remember the Virgin F1 team, a car designed solely with CFD.

[mrk1]

Im do not mean to deny the usefulness of software but its just not the end all means of design.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by TB Performance Products

WOW! I really appreciate all the feedback from you guys! Its good to see so much interest in braces! First off Id like to address some facts on our business because after all we are the new kids on the block here. We've been doing this full time for two years now and have had our hands on tons of cars and experience is our biggest weapon. As per our size, We have a small staff of 4 guys, and we have now shipped thousands of braces internationally. Hell, the Parts Manager of Scion of San Diego has been talking with us about carrying our products in their dealership and Turbokits.com has been licensing our Kia Forte Braces for 8 months now. As far as engineering goes we designed everything based off of our real world testing and sat down with an aerospace engineer who currently is out helping the Saudis design planes. The guy has been an engineer for over 30 years and was absolutely brilliant...if a little rough around the edges. Now I could sit here and post track times from our turboed TC2, 400whp speed3, or 450whp track evo and the comparison of before and after but those times can easily be refuted based on sandbagging one lap and going hard on another...Braces truly are a hard product because the difference is in feel as well as times. As for the benefits outweighing the weight argument...we totally agree, there were several braces we tested for the frs/brz that didnt make enough of a difference, and as such we dont produce them. We have always striven for complete honesty and transparency with the community. We all drive and race modified cars and want the community to have REAL products with TANGIBLE difference. In the past two years we have never had a weld failure or ANY person say that they didnt notice a massive difference, however i know you will all take this with a grain of salt as this is our business lol.

There's no sandbagging when the baseline time is clearly competitive. That's why I specifically asked for before and after times.

What kind of tangible difference does your product provide, when you're not giving us tangible evidence in the form of results?

I don't mean to call you out, but if you're going to make claims, then I want to see them substantiated.

Now, if you had just said "he's a chassis brace, it's well crafted and high quality", then you'd be just fine in my book. With the claims of engineering in the product, I'd like to see substantiated results.


I'll offer up our car for testing, and invite forum members to come observe to see that there is no sandbagging. Competitive times will be run for both the before and after runs. If a 3 second gain was realized on a 48 second course, imagine the gains on a 2 minute course. We'll break records and then some.

[Symmetrical]

I think it's safe to say at this point, people want to see evidence and data supporting the claims.

There was mention that people buy intakes and exhausts all the time, but you know what? Those companies support those products with measurable data like dynos. Whether or not it shaves 3 seconds off their lap time isn't the point.

[nalc]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

But how would they know to apply it in the first place? Perhaps the proof of concept has been proven over and over again/immortalized within structural/automotive engineering circles. No need to reinvent the wheel. To be thorough, the OEM may have used a strain gauge to validate the decision. Or not, because that might be like doing integral calculus then taking the derivative of your answer to prove it (an academic exercise).

Oh, they absolutely do. It's called the pedigree of the analysis tools, and it's a big thing. You've got a nice pretty computer simulation, but that's all it is - a simulation. Who knows if it's correct or not? Only way is to run the simulation, make the design, test it with strain gauges, see if it matches the model, then refine the model. It's an iterative process. Your computer model isn't worth a fart in the wind if it doesn't have a pedigree. I'm sure Subaru has a nice model that is refined from years of development and testing, and it's worth a lot of money to them. You can bet the computer code for that model is as closely guarded of a secret as Coke's secret formula.

And frankly, that's why I'd be worried about a chassis brace developed by an aftermarket company solely using computer analysis tools. They don't have Subaru's chassis models, they don't know what all the loads are or what the chassis is doing. It'd be a huge task just to develop a functioning computer model of the BRZ chassis, and that's without even seeing if it's accurate. (Note: I'm referring to determining the locations where braces are needed, not for the analysis of how the braces themselves are constructed, that should be easy). Simple tests like before-and-after laps, or using a strain gauge or another test method to look for chassis flex (like leaving one end unbolted and seeing if it stays lined up) is probably the best you're going to get, and a refund if you don't like it seems pretty reasonable to me.

I guess at the end of the day, I'm mostly just skeptical that Subaru, who went out with the intent of making a great handling car, and had the analysis tools, test equipment, and manufacturing capabilities to do whatever they wanted to, would miss any "easy" spots to add a brace and get a big handling improvement for a small weight impact, but who knows how rushed they were, or how worried they were about weight, or whether they were trying to reduce costs.

[TB Performance Products]

As stated before 100 percent money back guarantee speaks for itself. If you are skeptical you have nothing to lose. The difference wasnt between a strut bar...we dont even make strut bars for speed3s because no difference was measured with the factory having an integrated front strut bar in the firewall. The 3 seconds came from EVERY brace we have working together on the vehicle. As said by Brett...Its not all about our strut bars, its about everything else. You asked for times and I gave them to you. If you dont believe it then thats fine, however it was and is truth. I encourage everyone who is skeptical of my work to go sift through scionlife.com and see how many people there have bought braces and been shocked by the difference.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by TB Performance Products

As stated before 100 percent money back guarantee speaks for itself. If you are skeptical you have nothing to lose. The difference wasnt between a strut bar...we dont even make strut bars for speed3s because no difference was measured with the factory having an integrated front strut bar in the firewall. The 3 seconds came from EVERY brace we have working together on the vehicle. As said by Brett...Its not all about our strut bars, its about everything else. You asked for times and I gave them to you. If you dont believe it then thats fine, however it was and is truth. I encourage everyone who is skeptical of my work to go sift through scionlife.com and see how many people there have bought braces and been shocked by the difference.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'll offer up our car for testing, and invite forum members to come observe to see that there is no sandbagging. Competitive times will be run for both the before and after runs. If a 3 second gain was realized on a 48 second course, imagine the gains on a 2 minute course. We'll break records and then some.

What time do you think can be gained by a full set of your bracing on a FR-S/BRZ? This is the record holding lap, on video, at Buttonwillow.

You're interested in fabricationg, I'm interested in dropping time in our shop car. If there's results to be had, I can recommend to my bosses to try the parts, but we don't blindly pick parts simply because the manufacturer claims they work.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBZWkoQO-s"]CSG BRZ Buttonwillow 2:00 lap - YouTube[/ame]

[TB Performance Products]

I cannot give you an estimate. However we would love to put our products on yet another track car. I will be sending you a PM in a second.

[TB Performance Products]

As far as the three second drop on our mazdaspeed3 goes. I can mechanically explain why the gain was so severe. The mazdaspeed has gobs of wheel hop and torque steer problems. The car we ran our products on was running over 400 horsepower at the wheels. On such a small course like Adams wheel hop was quite literally killing his corner exits. He couldnt get on boost quick enough before the next corner without the steering wheel being ripped from his hands, and when he came into the corner the platform had a problem of the rear end "floating" away...If youve ever driven a speed3 or even a mazda 3 you will know exactly what I mean. Between the traction bar, Mid chassis, Trunk Brace, Trunk Cage, and rear tie, it made a large impact on his ability to stay on throttle longer and be on it earlier.

[TB Performance Products]

As for our Ford Fiesta that kicked ass at autocross, it again fell to A SERIES of chassis braces. There was huge weakness in the front crossmember at the point in which it connects to the actual unibody of the car. The rear torsion beam suspension was also in adequate. We created a torsion bar which essentially shortens up the lever arms on the torsion beam(has similar characteristics to an rsb) This added some oversteer to the car which in combination with our front crossmember brace, I brace, and Lateral braces caused a reduction in his times. Ill be honest. The other drivers that day werent exactly what id call The Stig..but he still did excellent and drew quite the crowd.