Are you getting Manual or Auto?

[EK_Golfer]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

I said I wanted to tap a second time instinctively because it took so long in manual mode w/o sport mode engaged. It's like the elevator door effect when u press the button and nothing happens. Same for second gear to first, it's much less aggressive, wouldn't blip the throttle and only down shifted to first at a near stop unlike when sport mode was engaged on the tranny and responded like it should from 2nd to 1st at the proper speed rather than being sisified. You can tap the paddle 3 or 4 times in sissy mode and second wont drop to first at the same speed it will in sport mode.

If people are shifting their Autos in manual mode w/o sport mode engaged on the tranny, you are really missing out big time. Might as well just leave it in drive.

I've shifted in regular manual mode plenty of times, and it never felt slow to the point I wanted to "double tap" it. I was cruising down PCH recently (Malibu Pepperdine area), the up and downshifts were plenty quick without using Sport mode. The throttle blipping for downshifts were perfect as usual through turns, but I never felt the need to downshift back into 1st gear. If you're coming to a stop there really is no benefit to rev match 1st gear (in an MT you would've just put the clutch in at that point, unless you want to sound cool and blip the throttle to come to a stop). When I drove MT, I never downshifted into first when coming to a stop, I just hit the brakes and put the clutch in when the speed slowed way down.

[Anaxilus]

Well, we can agree to disagree. No Sport mode, me no buy Auto. With Sport mode, me fine buying Auto. Different strokes for different folks. I was very, very disappointed w/ my first test drive using manual only. The slow(er) shifts were the thing I hated most about the car. Not sure if you have driven a quicker shifting SMT or DCT, that might make you feel different, especially if you push the car hard. Not sure how hard you were pushing down the PCH, I'd never really be able to thrash the tranny on the PCH like I would in normal city driving through traffic in the OC.

And yes, shifting to first can sound cool. It can also be quite handy under the right circumstances, even w/ an auto. Maybe even a lifesaver.

[makesdrivingfunagain]

I have seen many dyno videos for the FR-S in stock form, however, these were all manuals. I am planning on putting mine on a dynojet soon. In fact I will post the result when I do. This is the same dyno somebody else tested their bone stock manual. This will be good data for comparison. I will ask the dyno tech for the air temp on the day they tested that one. I however plan to do some mixing with the 100 octane and the 91 to get a fuel mixture of approximately 93+. Right now the tank is almost full, I can't wait to burn more fuel to see if it is faster with the higher octane fuel, this shall be interesting, interesting indeed...!

[tacoss23]

I re-test drove the auto last friday, even though I'm ordering a '14 manual.

The auto is surprisingly decent. I come from driving a 328i with paddles and I didn't expect this $25k car (which main purpose wasn't get the auto right) to have such a responsive shifting.

However, it's not worth it. Even if you don't know how to drive manual yet and you'll have to learn, do yourself a favor and go for the manual. The auto is "decent" but that's about it. Outside of the decently responding paddle shifting, the rest of the trans is just....lacking. The reaction is still bland and pretty much generic for any auto trans, (it's not like bmw's sporty feeling auto trans for example). You will still have huuuge reaction times when pushing the gas, and then you come to realize you are driving a 161 whp little car. Yes, the auto trans makes it more obvious (more often) the limits of this engine in terms of power. I mean you have those horrible mid 7 sec 0-60 times that some magazines are showing for this car, that's because they are using the auto.

It's a combination of having just a barely "decent auto" vs a really good manual trans for such a good sports car that makes it a no contest.

[Optimus Prime]

Originally Posted by tacoss23

I mean you have those horrible mid 7 sec 0-60 times that some magazines are showing for this car, that's because they are using the auto.

It's a combination of having just a barely "decent auto" vs a really good manual trans for such a good sports car that makes it a no contest.

"horrible" is all relative though. I bought an auto so my wife can get in on the fun (can't drive stick. doesn't care to learn). I also bought this knowing that even the stick wasn't a powerhouse. The auto doesn't change the feel of the car at all imo. I'm coming from a 2006 Impreza Wagon 2.5i with the 4EAT. It's not exactly the epitome of speed or sportiness(still love it regardless). Compared to that, especially at highway speeds, this car feels like a supercar.

I wholeheartedly agree that for most people, they should get the stick, but the slushbox has it's place. Compared to a lot of autos out there, this one is phenomenal. Now, if we move like we currently want to and find a house with parking for 3 cars without having to move them around, then I will immediately begin sobbing over the purchase of the auto.

[HotLeopardMama]

Originally Posted by Optimus Prime

"horrible" is all relative though. I bought an auto so my wife can get in on the fun (can't drive stick. doesn't care to learn). I also bought this knowing that even the stick wasn't a powerhouse. The auto doesn't change the feel of the car at all imo. I'm coming from a 2006 Impreza Wagon 2.5i with the 4EAT. It's not exactly the epitome of speed or sportiness(still love it regardless). Compared to that, especially at highway speeds, this car feels like a supercar.

I wholeheartedly agree that for most people, they should get the stick, but the slushbox has it's place. Compared to a lot of autos out there, this one is phenomenal. Now, if we move like we currently want to and find a house with parking for 3 cars without having to move them around, then I will immediately begin sobbing over the purchase of the auto.

My AT did pretty well running autocross at 86FEST this weekend... my times were comparable to other non-FI, non-tuned people. All I have is intake and exhaust, no suspension upgrades and year-old+ stock tires and wheels... and some of my times were actually faster than other comparable cars. I shut my nannies off completely for autocross.

Having not driven an MT since I was 16, I'd have to re-learn how and then try a similarly-equipped MT FRS to really know the difference, but having an AT hasn't dampened my fun on the autocross track or learning to do donuts, figure 8's, and gymkhana at the couple of 86 DDA's I've been to (couldn't do the 86FEST one, )

[makesdrivingfunagain]

Originally Posted by tacoss23

I re-test drove the auto last friday, even though I'm ordering a '14 manual.

The auto is surprisingly decent. I come from driving a 328i with paddles and I didn't expect this $25k car (which main purpose wasn't get the auto right) to have such a responsive shifting.

However, it's not worth it. Even if you don't know how to drive manual yet and you'll have to learn, do yourself a favor and go for the manual. The auto is "decent" but that's about it. Outside of the decently responding paddle shifting, the rest of the trans is just....lacking. The reaction is still bland and pretty much generic for any auto trans, (it's not like bmw's sporty feeling auto trans for example). You will still have huuuge reaction times when pushing the gas, and then you come to realize you are driving a 161 whp little car. Yes, the auto trans makes it more obvious (more often) the limits of this engine in terms of power. I mean you have those horrible mid 7 sec 0-60 times that some magazines are showing for this car, that's because they are using the auto.

It's a combination of having just a barely "decent auto" vs a really good manual trans for such a good sports car that makes it a no contest.

Wow, I thought I had buyers remorse a week ago. I should have more seriously considered purchasing a used (pre-owned) Vette, automatic of course and blew the doors off of the manual FR-S 0-60 and maybe the 1320. I think that may have a little better 0-60 and might be a bit faster on the track. But then again, I didn't buy a racecar. I bought a fun, gas efficient, well balanced, stylish daily driver. I am not sure how well the clutch or trans will endure under such driving conditions. I saw at least two videos, and the runs appeared to be quite aggressive rpm launches. I remember on the drag strip some of the faster gentlemen would say "the faster you go, the more they blow (up)"

[Optimus Prime]

HotLeopardMama
My AT did pretty well running autocross at 86FEST this weekend...

Glad to hear it's still just as fun to autoX as a stick. That's something on my to-do list with this car. I just need to find the time and a place to do it. I'd also like to take some HPDE classes first. Being not too far from Pocono Raceway, I'm hoping I can convince my wife to get me a class there as either a Christmas or Father's Day present. I think it'd be an amazing experience. I will say that every day I drive this car it puts a smile on my face regardless of the transmission.

[Ocala FR-S]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

I said I wanted to tap a second time instinctively because it took so long in manual mode w/o sport mode engaged. It's like the elevator door effect when u press the button and nothing happens. Same for second gear to first, it's much less aggressive, wouldn't blip the throttle and only down shifted to first at a near stop unlike when sport mode was engaged on the tranny and responded like it should from 2nd to 1st at the proper speed rather than being sisified. You can tap the paddle 3 or 4 times in sissy mode and second wont drop to first at the same speed it will in sport mode.

If people are shifting their Autos in manual mode w/o sport mode engaged on the tranny, you are really missing out big time. Might as well just leave it in drive.

Well.............. I tried it today in all 4 combinations of Sport mode on or off in either auto or manual mode. Held it 30 mph and repeatedly tapped the downshift paddle and it wouldn't downshift to first gear until I slowed down to 29mph. This was the same in any of the four combinations. It can't be what you say and what I experienced, must be my imagination.

[SpyderDan]

Originally Posted by Ocala FR-S

Well.............. I tried it today in all 4 combinations of Sport mode on or off in either auto or manual mode. Held it 30 mph and repeatedly tapped the downshift paddle and it wouldn't downshift to first gear until I slowed down to 29mph. This was the same in any of the four combinations. It can't be what you say and what I experienced, must be my imagination.

Sport mode on the tranny can't have anything to do with the acceptable speed range for any gear. 29 is the limit for 1st gear, regardless. The digital gear display shows up and down arrows, telling the driver at all times when a shift either way is in range. Nothing electronic can change the gear ratios.

I think a big part of what is going on with sport mode on the AT is the interpretation of the throttle-by-wire input. Without sport mode, it seems like the throttle input is getting smoothed out for fuel economy. You can mash the pedal real fast, but the ECU smoothly increases the throttle, which feels like lag. Naturally, this slows down the throttle changes, which slows down rev-matching, which makes the shifts slower.

Sport mode, on the other hand, seems to not smooth out the throttle. The throttle reacts to your pedal input much more directly, and can be quite peaky and aggressive, at the cost of fuel economy. This translates to the quicker shift times with aggressive throttle blips.

VSC Sport mode has nothing to do with the transmission, and does not factor into any of this.

[Ocala FR-S]

Originally Posted by SpyderDan

Sport mode on the tranny can't have anything to do with the acceptable speed range for any gear. 29 is the limit for 1st gear, regardless. The digital gear display shows up and down arrows, telling the driver at all times when a shift either way is in range. Nothing electronic can change the gear ratios.

I think a big part of what is going on with sport mode on the AT is the interpretation of the throttle-by-wire input. Without sport mode, it seems like the throttle input is getting smoothed out for fuel economy. You can mash the pedal real fast, but the ECU smoothly increases the throttle, which feels like lag. Naturally, this slows down the throttle changes, which slows down rev-matching, which makes the shifts slower.

Sport mode, on the other hand, seems to not smooth out the throttle. The throttle reacts to your pedal input much more directly, and can be quite peaky and aggressive, at the cost of fuel economy. This translates to the quicker shift times with aggressive throttle blips.

VSC Sport mode has nothing to do with the transmission, and does not factor into any of this.

I agree with all this or at least what has been documented (transmission range and the function of VSC Sport Mode). Transmission sport mode is obvious in its effect of holding onto gears longer and the tendency to favor lower gears for any given speed or level of throttle.

I have no reason to doubt your theory on quicker shidting in Sport mode being due to throttle response. It makes sense. I've not found any official documentation regarding the sport mode providing quicker shifts, much less why. I wish it was documented as the A/T seems to be much more complex than has ever been explained by the manufacturer. I'll guess I'll spend some time trying to discern how shift quickness differs depending on mode.

Also, I'll confuse the issue about the 29 mph "rule" (which is not much over 6K rpm in 1st). I happened to discover that although you can't downshift to 1st while cruising at thirty, you can hit the throttle at thirty and downshift to 1st at 32 or 33 mph and use the rest of the rpm range to a little above 7K before going to 2nd. It seems the tranny knows there's no reason to downshift to first above 6K when simply cruising or decelerating, but will allow you to downshift to get at the 6K to 7.2K range in 1st if you want to accelerate. Again, this behavior doesn't seem to depend on A/T Sport mode on or off.

I may not live long enough to discover all the nuances of this A/T. But it's all good.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Hopefully if I buy a used 2013 there will be an large variety, if a manual comes along that will be the first to grab, but with a manual I would be afraid somebody would have beat the shit out of the clutch.

[SpyderDan]

Originally Posted by Ocala FR-S

I've not found any official documentation regarding the sport mode providing quicker shifts, much less why. I wish it was documented as the A/T seems to be much more complex than has ever been explained by the manufacturer. I'll guess I'll spend some time trying to discern how shift quickness differs depending on mode.

Yeah, I really wish there was more documentation as well. I have found several reviews online that mention these things, but little from Toyota or Subaru.

I did find some Toyota Australia and New Zealand sites that mention Sport mode effecting the "throttle response" and shift times (and even claiming a 0.2 sec shift time in Sport mode, making it the fastest slushbox in the world!). In addition, they also mention that sport mode effects the locking of the torque converter.

I have also found descriptions of the snow mode from official sources mentioning the throttle input being slowed down to prevent slippage, in addition to locking out 1st gear (but not mentioning how sport mode effects throttle-by-wire).

Another interesting note about the subject I found in the BRZ owner's manual. It warns that selecting sport mode while already in manual mode does not actually give you sport mode features, despite the sport mode light on the dash. You need to select sport mode with the shifter in D, and then go into M. Likewise, turning on cruise control disables sport mode, and sport mode cannot be enabled while cruise control is on. This little tidbit seems like it could certainly be adding to the confusion.

[Ocala FR-S]

Originally Posted by SpyderDan

Yeah, I really wish there was more documentation as well. I have found several reviews online that mention these things, but little from Toyota or Subaru.

I did find some Toyota Australia and New Zealand sites that mention Sport mode effecting the "throttle response" and shift times (and even claiming a 0.2 sec shift time in Sport mode, making it the fastest slushbox in the world!). In addition, they also mention that sport mode effects the locking of the torque converter.

I have also found descriptions of the snow mode from official sources mentioning the throttle input being slowed down to prevent slippage, in addition to locking out 1st gear (but not mentioning how sport mode effects throttle-by-wire).

Another interesting note about the subject I found in the BRZ owner's manual. It warns that selecting sport mode while already in manual mode does not actually give you sport mode features, despite the sport mode light on the dash. You need to select sport mode with the shifter in D, and then go into M. Likewise, turning on cruise control disables sport mode, and sport mode cannot be enabled while cruise control is on. This little tidbit seems like it could certainly be adding to the confusion.

The cruise control disable/prevent feature is easily observable. The Sport mode before manual mode rule and the ambiguous light is not something I could have even guessed. That's good to know as I autocross in A/T Sport Mode / Full Off traction-VSC (3 second left button) / Manual Mode. Fortunately, I engage them in that order so I should be good. Thanks for sharing that.