Direct Injector Failure Poll

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by thill

Sure, lots of variables. You can also have people register and claim they had a DI issue and never even owned the car.

The number is most definitely higher than .0006%, but I would be shocked if it was higher than half a percent.

That's true as well. If it only turns out to be half a percent or so, then that would be great...I hope that it is.

[regal]

If the world was honest we could post a poll that reads like this:

What percent of the time do you drive your '86 in its power band:

A. Never only a few WOT pulls per day 89.9999%

B. most of the time , this is a sports car I keep the car above 5k rpm except on highways/interstates 0.0001%

C. Uh what's a power band, you mean when Vtec kicks in? 10%

Now posting a poll like this would be useless. However we do know that many people feel the car wasn't meant to be driven constantly over 5k rpm.

Tromatic posted :

l will just go ahead and assume that none of those cars are just being driven to church on Sunday.

Mikem53 posted :

This is a stock engine not designed or strengthened

And finally we have a true enthusiast CSG Mike who claims and I believe him that he can drive any '86 into blowing a DI seal in less than 500 miles of driving in the power band.

All that means is over time the problem will become more common, as people get tired of lugging around under 3k rpm and drive the car like a sports car (which doesn't mean breaking the law.)

The RX-8's first year probably had a similar percentage of total engine failures as ours, as time went on most all of them were done by 100k miles. I hope this isn't Japan's latest Wankel, I honestly believe the right tuning efforts can make this car more than a drive to church car.

On the radio a news announcement said that the average age of a car in the USA is 11 years (up 2 years from the last analysis.) People buying cars today expect them to last. I do think this forum is heavily biased toward "new car people", people who trade away after a few years. And people who have never owned a sports car or know how to drive a high revving low torque car.

If this car's reputation among enthusiasts doesn't hold as having durability as good or better than a Miata the sales will drop like a rock. I really hope the rumors are true that a fix was put in place this January.

[thill]

If this car holds up as well as my three RX-7's I have owned I will be uber happy. Well over 100K miles on two of them and I sold the third one for almost as much as I bought it for after 3 years of driving it and it ran like a top.

One of the reasons I bought my BRZ was that it reminded me of my RX-7's...

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by regal

I really hope the rumors are true that a fix was put in place this January.

If that was the case then I see no reason why any cars that were manufactured prior to that point would not be called back in for a reflash.

Also, that should be easy to check. The person that put forward the "transient table" theory as the root cause of the injector seal failures should be able to take a look at the ECUs on cars produced after the January date and verify that the tables are different above 5200 RPM.

However, if the failures are actually related to excessive heat in the area of the direct injectors then the problem cannot be solved with simply reprogramming the ECU. It would require a redesign of the block or head. I can understand why Subaru would not want to acknowledge or address that.

I wonder how Gazoo Racing and Swiss Racing solved the problem? Are they using a different engine management system? My understanding was at least some of the cars run near stock engines. Are they using additional cooling like Robispec? They have ran the cars at racing speeds for 24 hours straight and have not had all their engines fail due to detonation. Maybe the issue is not as inevitable as some believe it is.

Time will tell. As the facts and data comes in, the truth will come out.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Rampage

If that was the case then I see no reason why any cars that were manufactured prior to that point would not be called back in for a reflash.

Also, that should be easy to check. The person that put forward the "transient table" theory as the root cause of the injector seal failures should be able to take a look at the ECUs on cars produced after the January date and verify that the tables are different above 5200 RPM.

However, if the failures are actually related to excessive heat in the area of the direct injectors then the problem cannot be solved with simply reprogramming the ECU. It would require a redesign of the block or head. I can understand why Subaru would not want to acknowledge or address that.

I wonder how Gazoo Racing and Swiss Racing solved the problem? Are they using a different engine management system? My understanding was at least some of the cars run near stock engines. Are they using additional cooling like Robispec? They have ran the cars at racing speeds for 24 hours straight and have not had all their engines fail due to detonation. Maybe the issue is not as inevitable as some believe it is.

Time will tell. As the facts and data comes in, the truth will come out.

All it takes is a correction on a few tables.

Robispec has been tuned since his engine was broken in.

We left our engine 100% stock, down to the tune and filters.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Rampage

If that was the case then I see no reason why any cars that were manufactured prior to that point would not be called back in for a reflash.

Also, that should be easy to check. The person that put forward the "transient table" theory as the root cause of the injector seal failures should be able to take a look at the ECUs on cars produced after the January date and verify that the tables are different above 5200 RPM.

However, if the failures are actually related to excessive heat in the area of the direct injectors then the problem cannot be solved with simply reprogramming the ECU. It would require a redesign of the block or head. I can understand why Subaru would not want to acknowledge or address that.

I wonder how Gazoo Racing and Swiss Racing solved the problem? Are they using a different engine management system? My understanding was at least some of the cars run near stock engines. Are they using additional cooling like Robispec? They have ran the cars at racing speeds for 24 hours straight and have not had all their engines fail due to detonation. Maybe the issue is not as inevitable as some believe it is.

Time will tell. As the facts and data comes in, the truth will come out.

Great points, tuning can do a lot of things like change the amount of heat of the cylinder head mass around the seals.

As far as Gazoo and Swiss, I personally suspect "track tuning". This is something completely foreign to the EcuTek vendors on this forum that are advertising increasing horsepower. A track tune does the opposite, you give up a tiny amount of HP for durability. Ask one of the dozen or so WRX/STI tuners for a track tune and they know exactly what to do, unfortunately those guys don't own EcuTek software and have enough business fixing factory WRX/STI tunes.

Eventually as you say the truth will come out, doubt it will be from the OEM, but trickle down when the worldwide expert Subaru tuners start sharing their tunes.

[CSG David]

Even Amuse has discussed changing the seals out due to seal failure.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuQklVDaSjQ&t=30m40s"]junior varsity game - YouTube[/ame]

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by CSG David

Even Amuse has discussed changing the seals out due to seal failure.

Did he discuss it in that video? My Japanese is a little rusty

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

Did he discuss it in that video? My Japanese is a little rusty

Doesn't make a difference. We all know what the fix is. The reality is, Subaru/Toyota will provide a fix and trickle it into the cars eventually without telling anyone. Being honest is the best business practice which will allow them to develop into a more successful company, but it's not in their blood to do so, at least at this point in time.

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by CSG David

Doesn't make a difference. We all know what the fix is. The reality is, Subaru/Toyota will provide a fix and trickle it into the cars eventually. Being honest is the best business practice which will allow them to develop into a more successful company, but it's not in their blood to do so, at least at this point in time.

I hope that they do. It would save me the $800 we talked about on a tune and the warranty on my engine

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

I hope that they do. It would save me the $800 we talked about on a tune and the warranty on my engine

More than likely it'll be trickled in a couple years from now without you knowing and will be implemented on the newer models. From the way they talk about this issue, they will not acknowledge a problem. Still going to need a tune.

[AsianStyle]

Originally Posted by CSG David

More than likely it'll be trickled in a couple years from now without you knowing and will be implemented on the newer models. From the way they talk about this issue, they will not acknowledge a problem. Still going to need a tune.

Does Toyota/Subaru newest ecu flash not contain the fix? Would you not be able to go just contact your dealership and demand an ecu flash?

I'm just wondering about alternatives besides getting a third party tune.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by AsianStyle

Does Toyota/Subaru newest ecu flash not contain the fix? Would you not be able to go just contact your dealership and demand an ecu flash?

Nope (not in the US, anyway). That would require acknowledging there was a problem.

[AsianStyle]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

Nope (not in the US, anyway). That would require acknowledging there was a problem.

Oh, I guess I got confused because Rich @ Visconti stated "all Visconti Tuned Calibrations incorporate the latest factory-release patches made specifically to address and correct the issues with the direct injection system."

So, I thought all dealerships would have the same.