What would you do? Audio discussion.

[thill]

Let me just preface this by saying that I know very little about car audio, but I know a lot about home audio and recently finished my home theater myself and built (from scratch) four custom 15" subwoofers (including designing them, and building the enclosures from birch plywood).

The one thing I have realized is that as good as your speakers are, it is even more important to get proper placement, and EQ to get the most out of them. In my case I am using Audyssey XT32, and REQ measurement software to measure and tweak the room.

My point in all this is that I am somewhat lost with car audio. I have spent some time tweaking the car's EQ in my BRZ, but you can only do so much with weak amps and speakers. The car sound okay, but I would like a little more. Bass is pretty weak and the tweeters seem to distort pretty easy and are not that clear. While I am a basshead with home theater, I am really not one at all for my car and just want something to play clean with a little more punch.

I have been to several local custom audio shops and am even more confused:

Option 1- Shop A recommends buying some good JL Audio 6.5's for the doors and JL tweeters (C5 series) for the dash. They recommend leaving the 3.5 mids in the dash and rear and getting a nice small footprint 4 channel JL amp with new crossovers and power the dash and front 6.5's off the new amp (he would scrap the crappy 2 channel OEM amp. Installed we are looking at over $1300. This place has been around awhile and the consultant I spoke with seemed to know his stuff. He told me to keep costs down a little we could go with C3 series JL speakers. I just think that is a lot for a 4 channel amp, a set of tweeters, and 2 new 6.5's. Install was around $300-400, so I would be paying about $850 or so for the amp and 6.'5's and tweeters.

Option 2- Shop B is recommending two options. The first is replacing the 6.5's and tweeters with Helix speakers. He recommends just getting rid of the 3.5 mids in the dash and then upgrading the rears with some 4" Helix speakers and building a custom 10" Diamond sub. All to be powered off a 5 channel Helix amp. Total cost (all speakers, sub , amp, install, tax, etc) is around $1670. To be honest, this is more than I wanted to spend. I could eliminate the rear speakers and have him use the stock ones and save about $300. I don't know much about Helix gear and Diamond subs and have no idea how this will sound.

Option 3- The other option Shop B is recommending is the OEM + 400 system that integrates quite easily with the BRZ. $1199 for the system and $175 installed (which seems pretty reasonable). On the surface this seems like a lot for a sub, amp, and two tweeters and not replacing any of the other stock speakers. But what I do like about this is the nice integrated sub which allows me to keep most of my already small trunk space intact. Even more, I like the DSP amp that has been tweaked specifically for these speakers and car. While the other systems may have better speakers, this system may actually sound better because it EQ'd and tuned specifically for our cars. OEM + is also coming out with replacement rear and door speakers that I could upgrade to later on...

I still don't know if I want to spend this much. I can get also go to a place like Best Buy and get a cheaper 4/5 channel amp and speakers like option 1 and have them install everything for under $1K easy and probably even add a cheap sub enclosure. I just don't know if I want Best Buy installing my speakers and at that point the OEM + setup is only $400 or so more. I will probably stop in at Best Buy and look around.

Another option is to buy everything online but I am not sure I feel 100% comfortable and knowledgeable enough to install all this myself. This would be the cheapest route and could probably get some good speakers, a 5 channel amp and build my own sub/enclosure for under $800.

What do you guys think? I have read some very impressive reviews on the OEM + system and it seems like a simple and clean solution, but is well over my $800-1000 budget I was originally considering.

I have scoured this forum and it seems like there is little information about simple drop in solutions that sound good. I do think I would have to replace the stock amp in the rear and I also wonder if good 6.5's off an amp would be enough or would an 8-10" sub be better for good bass (but not overwhelming).

Sorry for the long rant...

[Gary in NJ]

Originally Posted by thill

What do you guys think? I have read some very impressive reviews on the OEM + system and it seems like a simple and clean solution, but is well over my $800-1000 budget I was originally considering.

You'll get opinions both for and against all of your options...only you know what you really want.

Do a bit more digging on the OEM+ system and you'll see that their is a Toyota/Scion parts guy that can get you a system at a discounted price. If you were able to build your own sub cabs, you are over qualified to install the Audio 400+ system . Save yourself the installation charge and I think you can get this system into your car at the upper range of your budget.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

You'll get opinions both for and against all of your options...only you know what you really want.

Do a bit more digging on the OEM+ system and you'll see that their is a Toyota/Scion parts guy that can get you a system at a discounted price. If you were able to build your own sub cabs, you are over qualified to install the Audio 400+ system . Save yourself the installation charge and I think you can get this system into your car at the upper range of your budget.

Gary, thanks for your feedback. I did some searching and the OEM + system can be found cheaper online, but only for the FR-S version which has different connectors, configuration and uses a different head unit than the BRZ. $1200 seems to be the going rate for the BRZ.

I think I scored a great deal at Best Buy on a 5 channel Alpine amp. $199 with a coupon I had and it is about $300-400 everywhere else.

I might use this amp, have the installer put in the Helix component speakers and the amp, and then build and install my own custom sub. This should get be close to $1K. But still debating...

[thill]

Well, I bought this amp at Best Buy for $199 with a coupon I had (it was already on a crazy sale):



http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/mrx-v70/

I called up a good friend of mine who is much more into car audio than I am and he recommended to me in order (based on my price range):
Focal
Hertz
JL Audio

I have heard Focal and really liked them, but the price for the series I was looking at were definitely pushing my budget. I was able to find the JL Audio C5-650 component speakers on a good deal so I jumped on them (nothing like buying things at 2am)...

Here is the JL Audio CS-5 650 set I bought:


For a subwoofer, I explained to my buddy that I was not looking for earthshattering bass, but wanted something to fill in the response curve and was not sure the 6.5 woofers would be enough without distorting. To keep the box small he recommended a shallow 10" sub which would allow me to have a very small footprint box in my trunk that I can build myself out of some MDF I have laying around. He told me to look into Pioneer on a budget, and Amazon had this one cheap (under $70 new) so I bought it (TS-SW251):



So far I have spent just under $600 for everything. I am going to have someone professionally install the amp and speakers, but I should still be under $1K for everything once it is done.

Modest, but should be a nice bump in what I have now without breaking the bank which was what I as looking for.

[Zippy]

Um.....What head unit are you using? The stock head unit in the BRZ does not have RCA outputs. You could do a line out converter, but it's so easy to get distortion using that.

EDIT: Scratch that, the amp has speaker level inputs.

[thill]

I spoke with the installer yesterday at length and he is a really passionate guy and knows his stuff. He recommends just eliminating the front 3.5 midbass driver entirely since it would have to be driven off the crossovers in the HU, and he is concerned that it would be hard to integrate (sound quality wise) with the new 6.5's, tweeter, and sub. Makes total sense and I really do not think I need them since I will now have a dedicated sub and the 6.5's will do a much better job of handling the mids (especially crossed over properly). He also thinks the rears are not worth the hassle of trying to integrate and I tend to agree.

I know most people think more speakers = better, but this is not always the case at all when trying to get the best soundstage.

As for the subwoofer, I spent some time taking measurements last night (I am going to build my own custom enclosure) and I am going to go with a wedge shaped sealed box that will be flush against the back of the rear seats in the trunk. It will be just under .5 cu square ft which Pioneer recommends for my woofer and it will take up minimum space in the rear.

I used baltic birch when I built my home theater subs, and am really thinking I will use the same material on this box vs MDF since baltic birch is much lighter but equally resilient. I will also throw in about a half pound of polyfill, since I have had good luck with it in the past with previous subs (it essentially tricks the sub into thinking it is in a larger box than it is).

I will provide more information as I proceed in case someone else wants to copy my build, the goal is to get the angles just right with the rear seat to maximize every inch of space.

The installer did rave about the OEM + system for our cars. He told me he was very impressed with the system, especially with the integration of the DSP and the tuning that was performed to get the best soundstage possible. So for those of you out there considering it, he is a big fan. That said, for the same cost I can do what I am doing and have enough money to add a DSP to EQ the sound. But he did have me questioning whether or not to just go with the OEM + system...

Oh yeah, the installer is also adding sound deadening material to the doors, and I plan on doing the trunk myself.

[RandomHero]

Looks like it should be a good setup. The stock speakers really arent too bad if they are amplified. I have a 4 channel alpine running the stock door speakers, and a mono alpine runnign my 10 type S. Sounds good for the $150 price I paid for 2 used amps and sub box (had the type S lying around the house). With a DSP I think I could make it damn good. Im still trying to sort out where to permanently hide these amps... Velcro in the trunk is their current home.

[kmbkk]

I'll tell you want I'm going to do. I'm putting in a 3-way comp set from PHD, the AF line. These will be run active via a JVC DD head unit, through a JBL MS-8, and powered by PHD amps. I'm running 2 8" subs in the trunk. No rear fill speakers. I plan to make custom dash pods to fit a 4" and tweeter where the stock speakers go, just raised a little to fit the 4" in.

[thill]

Originally Posted by RandomHero

Looks like it should be a good setup. The stock speakers really arent too bad if they are amplified. I have a 4 channel alpine running the stock door speakers, and a mono alpine runnign my 10 type S. Sounds good for the $150 price I paid for 2 used amps and sub box (had the type S lying around the house). With a DSP I think I could make it damn good. Im still trying to sort out where to permanently hide these amps... Velcro in the trunk is their current home.

Yeah, considering the OEM + audio system only replaced the tweeters, I think it says a lot about the stock speakers. I wanted to switch out the tweeters and address the crossovers, so it just made sense to get a bump in the 6.5's as well.

Have you thought about putting at least one of your amps (if not both) where the stock amp was? That is what I am thinking for my amp.

[thill]

Originally Posted by kmbkk

I'll tell you want I'm going to do. I'm putting in a 3-way comp set from PHD, the AF line. These will be run active via a JVC DD head unit, through a JBL MS-8, and powered by PHD amps. I'm running 2 8" subs in the trunk. No rear fill speakers. I plan to make custom dash pods to fit a 4" and tweeter where the stock speakers go, just raised a little to fit the 4" in.

This sounds like an awesome setup. Are you going to start a thread on it, or track your install/progress? Very interested in the MS-8 and how you get it integrated. Depending on how happy I am with the upgrade, I may go down that path as well.

[kmbkk]

I do plan to do a thread on it. It'll be a few months, though, as I'm currently deployed. I had the MS-8 in my previous car and it was fairly straight forward to set up and use. It did take some time and patience to tweak it just right, but it's well worth it.

[RandomHero]

Originally Posted by thill

Yeah, considering the OEM + audio system only replaced the tweeters, I think it says a lot about the stock speakers. I wanted to switch out the tweeters and address the crossovers, so it just made sense to get a bump in the 6.5's as well.

Have you thought about putting at least one of your amps (if not both) where the stock amp was? That is what I am thinking for my amp.

I have! But I dont own a dremel yet so I cant cut off the old amp's mounting studs. But perhaps if I have the time ill try my have at cutting and fabbing up brackets to mount the amps under the trunk liner. Until then I have actually been looking at mounting them under the "parcel shelf" using some 1/4 plywood in the shed and wrapping it in vinyl.

[ean611]

Thill:

Something missing from all your builds: midrange speakers.

The BRZ/FRS has terrible doors for midrange. 500-4000Hz range, you do not want to be part of those door enclosures.

By the same token, your dashboard sounds like crap, as all of ours do. 4th order high pass filter (24dB/octave) around 500Hz is also something you want for the dashboard.

Your best best for sound is a 3 way setup, door woofers, plus 3 inch plus tweeter. You're better off doing that and going with no rears as opposed to going 2-way up front. I've listened to very nice speakers in a 2 way setup in a FR-S, and I'd say you're significantly better off going 3-way.

If you want a sub, Integrity Concepts is a great deal once they get back on their feet following their move, otherwise, the JL Audio Stealthbox is a nice piece.

[ean611]

Originally Posted by thill

This sounds like an awesome setup. Are you going to start a thread on it, or track your install/progress? Very interested in the MS-8 and how you get it integrated. Depending on how happy I am with the upgrade, I may go down that path as well.

MS-8 is a great device, if you don't know how to tune an install. It does a very good job of tuning, and while technically I can do better, the MS-8 will get you 98% of the way there without having to spend hours tuning it.

Otherwise, you'll end up with a Mosconi 6-8, 3Sixty.3 or Arc Audio PS8. Those are all decent devices with their own pros and cons. However, all of those require an RTA to tune. The MS-8 is very easy.