BRZ after Cayman S and M3... is it a downgrade? NOW WITH VIDEO!

[thill]

Originally Posted by Jawnathin

Yup, I think there is a lot of 'grass is greener' within the car enthusiast realm.

Enthusiasts who haven't or don't own a high powered car always think 'If a little more HP is good, then a lot more is better', and lust after those big bragging rights horsepower numbers. Even if it compromises reliability, driveability, and maintenance.

Then guys with expensive high powered cars let them sit in the garage because fuel economy is bad, too loud, concerned about wear, maintenance is high, can't really use all the power on the street, etc. These are often heavier and bigger cars. Then they wish for something a little more tame and nimble that can be used everyday.

I've been on both sides of the fence and feel I have a pretty good balance now with having one of each. Both are thrilling in their own way and I'm always excited to drive either car around. No matter what I take out, I feel like I'm winning.

There are a few cars that fit between the two and even fewer that do it well, but even then, they're not objectively better than cars that are deep into either category.

To bring this back to the original topic, I think a Cayman S and M3 are a pretty good blend with the Cayman being a little more nimble and the M3 more Touring. Just depends on what I need from the car. On the higher end, something like a 911 S would be very nice.

I have been on both sides of the fence and I have realized that it is much easier to add power to a really good platform, then try to modify a GT car to make it handle and feel much lighter.

There is already some good aftermarket kits for the FR-S/BRZ, I can only imagine the costs will go down and kits will getter better over time.

I personally really love the way my BRZ drives. 90%+ of the time I have more than enough power. Another 40-50hp and 30-40ft lbs of torque would be 100% perfect for me. I could do it now if I wanted but I still am not sure if I need it, and still want to see how the tuner market evolves.

[go2brz]

The "formula" for this car is lightness leading to nimble handling. Their is no "in between" and rarely has been. I have always loved Lotus. I owned a 72 Europa for seveal years in the late seventies (bought it used). There is now tadeoff for light weight. I loved my 2001 M Coupe (ZR3 Hatchback with 315 HP 6cyl designed to compete with the first Caymens). But it also scared the shit of of me on the road if I tried to make use of it's full potential. When Autocrossing it took a lot more work to keep it under control and at it's fastest pace than it tood for my COBB Tuning modified RS 2.5 required around a timed course.

With the BRZ, it is the closest that I have ever felt to the Lotus Europa. Enough power to make full use of the chassis (and what a chassis) but not so much that I have to always be at my highest level of attention and concentration to feel safe. This is why the BRZ is one of the best,and most reliable, daily driver capable "pure" sports cars that has been offered at a price for the masses. I could buy a $60,000.00 sports car if I wanted to, but why should I strain my cash flow for a car that is not twice as good, yet it sells for twice the price? I respect Porsche and I love Lotus, but they are not worth the extra money compared to this car, unless money is not of concern.

[regal]

Originally Posted by s5pitfire

. FRSBRZ is a bit under 2,800 lbs and that's about as light as it gets without being a stripped out tin can civic (people would strip out their 1998 civic Si to 2,500 lbs for example)

To me 2800 lbs is mid weight. Really, classical gran touring cars weighed about as much and after those the 240sx/Silvia , W20 MR2, E30 BMW all weighed about 2800 lbs and were never considered lightweights.

[saeyedoc]

Test drove the FR-S this morning. Definitely needs more torque, I found passing acceleration from 60-80 was too weak. Otherwise, I thought it handled really nicely, the auto transmission was fine. The shallow trunk opening limits its utility.
If they come out with a higher powered version next year, I could see replacing my Cayman S with it.

[thill]

Originally Posted by saeyedoc

Test drove the FR-S this morning. Definitely needs more torque, I found passing acceleration from 60-80 was too weak. Otherwise, I thought it handled really nicely, the auto transmission was fine. The shallow trunk opening limits its utility.
If they come out with a higher powered version next year, I could see replacing my Cayman S with it.

Did you have the auto in sport mode? That makes a difference for sure for acceleration and passing. Would you consider a manual. This car does not have crazy passing power in the 60-80mph range, but if you downshift it can get the job done. By yes, some more torque would be nice

[saeyedoc]

Originally Posted by thill

Did you have the auto in sport mode? That makes a difference for sure for acceleration and passing. Would you consider a manual. This car does not have crazy passing power in the 60-80mph range, but if you downshift it can get the job done. By yes, some more torque would be nice

Tried all modes, with the passing test I was in sport using the paddle shifters. I'd love a MT, but can't deal with it in the heavy traffic I see around here.

[Inersha]

Nice review man

[autobrz]

Originally Posted by saeyedoc

Tried all modes, with the passing test I was in sport using the paddle shifters. I'd love a MT, but can't deal with it in the heavy traffic I see around here.

I have an auto and find 60-80 is perfect for 3rd gear. I really hate toyobaru for putting that sound tube in there to make the car annoying to drive in the 5-7k power band. Once you plug the sound tube, the car is pretty quiet all the way to redline and you won't feel like you're racing anyone just trying to pass.

[saeyedoc]

Originally Posted by autobrz

I have an auto and find 60-80 is perfect for 3rd gear. I really hate toyobaru for putting that sound tube in there to make the car annoying to drive in the 5-7k power band. Once you plug the sound tube, the car is pretty quiet all the way to redline and you won't feel like you're racing anyone just trying to pass.

Yea, I had it in 3rd, still not enough torque to accelerate fast enough for my tastes. I didn't mind the sound.

[WolfpackS2k]

^^I'm really not a fan of having to downshift to 3rd gear and floor it to pass another car quickly and safely on a two lane highway road. I mean I don't mind downshifting to 3rd, but you have to fully extract all the car's horsepower just to make a safe pass. It would be a bit less stressful if you didn't have to call on all the horses.

But honestly I don't mind the intake growl from the sound tube. We own sports cars - hearing the engine is part of that! I can't wait till mine has an UEL header so I can REALLY hear the engine!

Originally Posted by s5pitfire
. FRSBRZ is a bit under 2,800 lbs and that's about as light as it gets without being a stripped out tin can civic (people would strip out their 1998 civic Si to 2,500 lbs for example)

I'm not sure how much "stripping" is necessary to get a '99-'00 Civic Si down to 2500 lbs. (There was no Civic Si in 1998). A stock Civic Si barely weighed over 2600 lbs stock (2601lbs actually). And older early 90s Civics were more like 2100-2400lbs stock (big difference is due to the hatch/sedan disparity). Heck my "loaded" (for it's day) Integra GS-R's stock weight is 2656lbs. All those cars are pretty light, but this is before the government started going crazy with safety requirements.

[whitegloves]

No problem passing for me on the freeway. And the fact the car's lighter and shorter than most of the cars on the road makes passing so much more easier. Don't write it off so quickly yet, go back n give it another shot

[regal]

Originally Posted by whitegloves

No problem passing for me on the freeway. And the fact the car's lighter and shorter than most of the cars on the road makes passing so much more easier. Don't write it off so quickly yet, go back n give it another shot

What it really boils down to is the '86 has enough torque and hp for American roads, if you need more your breaking the law in almost all cases in the USA. If you are going to the track I can see the complaint but this thing is faster than the E30 M3 and the Porsche 944S, you don't need more for daily driving.

[saeyedoc]

I'm now considering just buying my Cayman S when the lease is up next year. I can buy it with tax for about $45k, figure after 3 more years it will still be worth at least $25k. Figuring the BRZ would depreciate about 50% in 3 years, the Cayman should only cost about $5k more (+ maintenance) than the BRZ over that period.
So for $150-200/month more, I could drive a 3 yr old Cayman S vs a new BRZ.

[thill]

Originally Posted by regal

What it really boils down to is the '86 has enough torque and hp for American roads, if you need more your breaking the law in almost all cases in the USA. If you are going to the track I can see the complaint but this thing is faster than the E30 M3 and the Porsche 944S, you don't need more for daily driving.

You don't have to break the law if add more horsepower and torque to the car. You will be faster accelerating between stop lights, merging, passing, etc. I have owned cars that are much faster than the BRZ and never gotten a ticket. Personally, I wold love another 40 or so hp and 30-40 more ft lbs of torque stock. That said, 90%+ of the time I feel like the car makes more than enough power, especially when you drive above the torque dip.