Ford Fiesta ST Beats Toyota GT86 on the Track in EVO Test

[regal]

Originally Posted by Suberman

common to never need to align a McPherson front end unless you renew parts.

In Deoris's video he said his FRS needed alignment after one autocross. But I'm at 7500 mi of hard driving rough roads and still driving straight. My double wishbone cars would have needed an alignment by now.

Btw, the Fiesta reminds me too much of a Ford Escort, anyone else?

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by topazsparrow

Now you're trying to say the stock BRZ spoiler makes enough down-force to warrant stiffer springs?

You need to stop making things up or stop believing everything you read on the internet. None of the OEM spoilers generate a measurable amount of down-force. period. They are purely cosmetic. I had written a rebuttal to everything else you wrote but I just deleted it as I'm relatively certain you're going to make up your own facts to refute it anyway.

Please. Just stop making this shit up. At the very least provide a source or a link to back up your claims.

You need to reread the prior posts for better comprehension and stop inventing things I never said. Nobody said anything about downforce, the BRZ being faster than the FRS or anything you are screaming about. You invented them in your imagination. Be glad a mod deleted my relevant post calling you out on it but left your post w/ the negative and deconstructive attitude for all to see.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Sorry, yes, it's the front springs that are softer on the FRS to tip the front end on turn-in. Gave the prior post too much subconscious credence when he just saw the rear end swinging out and offered an incorrect analysis. However, I had heard a rumor that perhaps the BRZ has stiffer dampers in the rear as well to offset the spoiler. I believe this swap was said to be part of the Scion spoiler option as well.

Actually I was saying the BRZ will be faster than the FRS around a track for most drivers. Not sure if I'd go so far to call a stock FRS neutral. It is designed to get the tail out.

But yes, the spring rate difference in the FRONT will have a noticeable difference in track time depending on the driver's ability to handle the different balance w/ VSC off. Obviously the two videos revealing more than a few seconds of difference tells you how much a driver's synergy w/ a car can make. The car can't drive it self. Well, actually....

Dampers are the same. Only difference is the spring rates. FRS has softer front, stiffer rear. BRZ has stiffer front and softer rear. FRS will have the tendency to have a looser rear, but you can get both to understeer pretty heavily if you really wanted to.

I don't see the factory BRZ wing providing any downforce. It's there to reduce drag more than anything.

A couple of videos have shown the JDM 86 being faster on track than the BRZ. Per the spring rates thread, the JDM 86 uses different spring rates than the FRS.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8739

From tail happy to less tail happy, the list goes:
1. FRS
2. JDM 86
3. BRZ

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by ayau

Dampers are the same. Only difference is the spring rates. FRS has softer front, stiffer rear. BRZ has stiffer front and softer rear. FRS will have the tendency to have a looser rear, but you can get both to understeer pretty heavily if you really wanted to.

I don't see the factory BRZ wing providing any downforce. It's there to reduce drag more than anything.

A couple of videos have shown the JDM 86 being faster on track than the BRZ. Per the spring rates thread, the JDM 86 uses different spring rates than the FRS.

Yes I know, a mod deleted my reply already. I don't know where you guys are getting downforce from, I never said anything about downforce ffs.

To explain once again, the damper comment was from a 10 series owner that said ordering the spoiler also included stiffer 'rear dampers' to accommodate the increased weight from the spoiler. This sounded odd to me which is why I said it was an unverified rumour. I presume he meant trunk damper when he said 'rear damper'.

As I said earlier, which version is faster will depend on the driver.

Anyway, when people begin to quote and reply to statements that don't exist, cherry pick, don't read the whole thread or apply things in context its probably time to move on before it recycles the same crap. Enjoy wherever the rest of this thread is going to go. Laterz.

[topazsparrow]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

You need to reread the prior posts for better comprehension and stop inventing things I never said. Nobody said anything about downforce, the BRZ being faster than the FRS or anything you are screaming about. You invented them in your imagination. Be glad a mod deleted my relevant post calling you out on it but left your post w/ the negative and deconstructive attitude for all to see.

You're right. I did misinterpret some things you said. My Apologies.

I still don't feel that the weight of a spoiler would have any appreciable effect that might necessitate a change in dampeners. I also am quite certain there is no discernible difference around a track between the BRZ and FRS given the same driver in both cars. You did seem to be stating that as a fact with no real data to back it up. One or two videos is hardly a big enough sample size.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Yes I know, a mod deleted my reply already. I don't know where you guys are getting downforce from, I never said anything about downforce ffs.

To explain once again, the damper comment was from a 10 series owner that said ordering the spoiler also included stiffer 'rear dampers' to accommodate the increased weight from the spoiler. This sounded odd to me which is why I said it was an unverified rumour. I presume he meant trunk damper when he said 'rear damper'.

As I said earlier, which version is faster will depend on the driver.

Anyway, when people begin to quote and reply to statements that don't exist, cherry pick, don't read the whole thread or apply things in context its probably time to move on before it recycles the same crap. Enjoy wherever the rest of this thread is going to go. Laterz.

That would make sense to swap out the trunk dampers due to the trunk lid weight differences, but I'm surprised that it would need to since the wing looks so flimsy and lightweight.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by topazsparrow

You're right. I did misinterpret some things you said. My Apologies.

I still don't feel that the weight of a spoiler would have any appreciable effect that might necessitate a change in dampeners. I also am quite certain there is no discernible difference around a track between the BRZ and FRS given the same driver in both cars. You did seem to be stating that as a fact with no real data to back it up. One or two videos is hardly a big enough sample size.

No worries man. I only meant to say that the different suspension tuning for the BRZ and FRS would work better w/ certain types of drivers than others, thus any differences in laptimes could possibly be found w/ how the driver interacts w/ the particular car in question. The videos of both cars and Tada-sans own statements about the tuning differences might be considered for data points. IME, not all automotive journalists are equal on the track. Not sure if you have driven both but I certainly noticed a difference just on the street. Given a really good professional driver, the difference should be rather negligible I'd imagine.

To clairfy what I have been trying to say from the beginning. If the FRS and BRZ are essentially close enough to have any negligible discrepancies in track times, then how do we explain the approx 4 second difference in track times in the two videos on the same track? If the BRZ is shown doing 4 seconds better than the FRS which only lost to the Fiesta by just over a second, how relevant is the Fiesta video to saying it's actually a faster car? Not very I'd say. The point being that, with proper context, the video doesn't tell us that the Fiesta is actually a faster track car for less money. It tells me that one video has a better driver than the other video.
:happy0180:

[Minhtyfresh]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

You're right, I read back through and no one implied that the FR-S had to be more fun because it was RWD instead of FWD. I don't feel the need to hog this thread anymore arguing circles around myself so I'll stop and let us get back to the Fiesta ST. Looks like a fun car! Still looking at getting one or the Focus ST within the next couple years for my wife.

I'll have to admit that I made the same mistake with not using the "quote" function here. My original post about RWD or FWD potential was certainly not to argue that the Fiesta was not a good car! Nor was it to argue that the FRS is superior in anyway. I was actually responding to the one guy who posted that there was no real science behind what makes RWD vs FWD vs AWD... because there obviously is.

That being said I'm sure either of the ST's will be more practical and enjoyable for your wife. Goodluck on the purchase.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by thill

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...-cayman-r.html

Up to 2012 it was McPherson all round.

My point was not tat "the" Cayman had struts just that "a" Cayman did.

Colin Chapman was the first to realize McPherson struts worked just as well, if not better, in the rear(on his ground breaking Elite in 1958). In the UK it is common to refer to these as "Chapman Struts" if on the rear. Lots of cars now use struts at each corner for good engineering reasons.

Struts occupy a lot of space vertically but are otherwise compact. The geometry is quite good for a road car.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

If power is something that's important to you, I would highly recommend going with a different car. I love my FR-S, but just being honest. All of the other cars you listed are FI, meaning they'll have a good chunk of midrange torque that the Twins don't have. In order to get the full 200 hp out of these cars, you have to downshift (often 2-3 gears) and drive the car hard to redline. It's fun for some, work to others. Different strokes for different folks, but if you're looking for power, I think you'd be happier with a FI car like the Focus ST, MS3, WRX, or even a GTI w/tune.

Having a car with more power and better gas mileage than my N/A Impreza is a priority yes, but also a better handling car too. Almost everything fits that criteria, the BRZ/FRS BARELY qualifies as being faster in a straight line which like I said is a bit disappointing.

I don't really want to mod the new car I buy, I want a car I don't have to tinker with minus maybe tires which eventually have to be replaced anyway, to make it a fun car.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Having a car with more power and better gas mileage than my N/A Impreza is a priority yes, but also a better handling car too. Almost everything fits that criteria, the BRZ/FRS BARELY qualifies as being faster in a straight line which like I said is a bit disappointing.

I don't really want to mod the new car I buy, I want a car I don't have to tinker with minus maybe tires which eventually have to be replaced anyway, to make it a fun car.

Sounds like you want a Cayman R. But I find the FR-S to be plenty fun in a straight line, I mean realistically when do you need better than 0-60 in 6.5 seconds performance on the road? The car has plenty of power to get a go directly to jail ticket.

[Suberman]

When the hard copy of the evo issue 186 comes out (I have the iPad version) read the fast fleet update of this test. Evo also drove these cars in the wet in doing this test, and declared the GT86 undrivable on stock tires in the wet.

I too consider the handling at the limit in the wet to be tricky. I think it likely the Torsen diff which is set up very tight, 4:1 bias in fact. You can feel it grumbling during tight low speed maneuvers.

By tricky I mean slow.

[Dazza]

Originally Posted by regal

But I find the FR-S to be plenty fun in a straight line, I mean realistically when do you need better than 0-60 in 6.5 seconds performance on the road?

This is a great question IMO:happy0180:, particularly when you have other "properly fast" cars in the garage. I used to DD an M3 and now I DD my GT 86, enormous power difference yes, but for daily driving duties it means very little and I found the M3 to be a little redundant compared to my other cars.

However, for those who have only 1 car....I do get the desire for more power

[texasbound972]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Yawn....stock tires on the FT suck...change those...results change

Plus the Fiesta looks like a babyshoe...I don't care how fast it is

Throw on some Dunlop Z1 Star Specs!!

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