Ford Fiesta ST Beats Toyota GT86 on the Track in EVO Test

[WolfpackS2k]

I love seeing handling arguments in favor of a FWD hatchback that make absolutely no mention of polar moments of inertia and center of gravity (not height but length-wise front to back). To think that a car that has it's engine in FRONT of the front axle would have better handling than a RWD car with it's engine on or slightly behind the front axle just blows my mind. And have fun trying not to overheat your front brakes while you're at it.

Also how much modibility can the Fiesta ST and Focus ST actually have when the turbo is cast into the exhaust mainfold?

[kuhlka]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Also how much modibility can the Fiesta ST and Focus ST actually have when the turbo is cast into the exhaust mainfold?

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I love seeing handling arguments in favor of a FWD hatchback that make absolutely no mention of polar moments of inertia and center of gravity (not height but length-wise front to back). To think that a car that has it's engine in FRONT of the front axle would have better handling than a RWD car with it's engine on or slightly behind the front axle just blows my mind. And have fun trying not to overheat your front brakes while you're at it.

Also how much modibility can the Fiesta ST and Focus ST actually have when the turbo is cast into the exhaust mainfold?

So every single MR car has to handle better than every FR car? In other words a Pontiac Fiero must handle better than your FRZ?

Exhaust manifolds are easily changed if you are already changing the turbo. If you're not changing the turbo then it really doesn't matter if it is cast into the manifold.

[WolfpackS2k]

While I said the turbo is cast into the exhaust manifold, I'm actually pretty sure it's part of the block as well. Lemme google that up.

And come on now, all things being equal you know my statement is true. I'm not about to say that a late 90s Chevy Caprice will outhandle an Integra Type R or anything but all things being equal the RWD car is always gonna out perform the FWD. You cannot argue with simple physics.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

I explained how it related... Can you really not see that saying the FRZ is better because RWD has more potential is invalid unless you are willing to say that my wife's 01 Subaru Legacy Wagon (not GT) is better than the FRZ in that it has more potential to put power down?

It's not about saying which one is better, it is about invalidating that argument...

Do I need a flow-chart or something?

No, you just need some logic. A flow chart of BS is pretty useless. This is why fallacies of analogies are pretty efficient OT thread killers as is clearly evident here. I can play the Kevin Bacon game of six degrees of separation too but it's pretty irrelevant. So let's get back to the Fiesta v. 86 okay? You and I can just drive our Legacys back home. Honestly, the thread should have just died out by now.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

While I said the turbo is cast into the exhaust manifold, I'm actually pretty sure it's part of the block as well. Lemme google that up.

And come on now, all things being equal you know my statement is true. I'm not about to say that a late 90s Chevy Caprice will outhandle an Integra Type R or anything but all things being equal the RWD car is always gonna out perform the FWD. You cannot argue with simple physics.

I would love to see a stock vs stock track time test for ITR vs FRZ. I am not sure what the outcome would be but the ITR might give your simple physics a run for its money.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

So every single MR car has to handle better than every FR car? In other words a Pontiac Fiero must handle better than your FRZ?

No, but MRs are an inherently superior design layout for handling. If an MR does not outhandle a FR, then something is wrong somewhere else. Thus the layout is not the issue, something else is going wrong...like tires, suspension, etc. Which is why the layout debate is stupid when all things are not equal.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

I would love to see a stock vs stock track time test for ITR vs FRZ. I am not sure what the outcome would be but the ITR might give your simple physics a run for its money.

I don't need to. A friend of mine has a stripped out ITR w/ aftermarket Konis/GCs and Hankooks w/ bracing and wheel rates, alignment all dialed in. It's about 2-3 secs slower than the stock BRZ in that video I linked on the same track. You're going to need a S2000 at least if you want to win at that game against a stock twin. Not even a Miata will get it done.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

No, but MRs are an inherently superior design layout for handling. If an MR does not outhandle a FR, then something is wrong somewhere else. Thus the layout is not the issue, something else is going wrong...like tires, suspension, etc. Which is why the layout debate is stupid when all things are not equal.

I agree, completely, 100%. All things aside, a mid engine AWD car that can transfer torque to each individual wheel based on the load on any given tire at any given time is optimal. But just because a car isn't that layout doesn't mean it is inferior. Half of the posts on this thread dog on the Fiesta ST because it is FWD. Well lets dog on the FRZ then because it isn't MR or MAWD (?). Clearly, it is inferior to any MR car, right? No, that's not correct. And clearly the Fiesta ST is inferior to the FRZ because the ST isn't FR, right? No, that is also not correct.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

I agree, completely, 100%. All things aside, a mid engine AWD car that can transfer torque to each individual wheel based on the load on any given tire at any given time is optimal. But just because a isn't that layout doesn't mean it is inferior. Half of the posts on this thread dog on the Fiesta ST because it is FWD. Well lets dog on the FRZ then because it isn't MR or MAWD (?). Clearly, it is inferior to any MR car, right? No, that's not correct. And clearly the Fiesta ST is inferior to the FRZ because the ST isn't FR, right? No, that is also not correct.

Right. We can agree there. As a counterpoint, the Fiesta is not better either when one of the most important factors in handling is tire compound and we know one car is on Prius tires, the other isn't.

So w/ all the BS in this thread, I think the actual relevant bits are pretty well spelled out already for rational folks to absorb.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

I don't need to. A friend of mine has a stripped out ITR w/ aftermarket Konis/GCs and Hankooks w/ bracing and wheel rates, alignment all dialed in. It's about 2-3 secs slower than the stock BRZ in that video I linked on the same track. You're going to need a S2000 at least if you want to win at that game against a stock twin. Not even a Miata will get it done.

Not really good enough for me. Stock vs stock with the same driver. I would like to see that. The cars are pretty comparable aside from drive-train layouts. Same power, close to the same weight, built for similar mindsets.

[Suberman]

The fiesta isn't the only fwd car to beat the BRZ round a track. Not available in America but is popular in Europe: the Renault Clio and of course the R26.

The reason the newer hot hatches are so quick is the trick front diff. By transferring torque from the outside wheel to the inside wheel (Torsen) or by braking the inside wheel (electronic) so as to divert torque to the loaded outside wheel more cornering ability is extracted. Either way more of the available total torque hits the road.

Also, the rear roll stiffness is enhanced to allow as much load as possible to transfer to the outside rear wheel. In the old days this trick was applied to the front axles of standard cars set up for track work: BMW 2002, Alfa Romeo GTV and Ford Escorts were all famous for lifting the inside front wheel just as hot hatches lift their inside rear wheel. For the same reason but to compensate for drive at the other end of the car.

There is something not quite right in the BRZ rear suspension. It seems to roll oversteer at the limits of grip or perhaps the Torsen drives too much torque across the rear axles too abruptly. Anyway, I get snap oversteer when I'm not really expecting it, oddly with the traction control on. With the traction control completely off the car exhibits progressive behaviour at least so far. I've experienced oversteer only on lower friction surfaces with traction control off and the body roll has not been a significant factor. Under those conditions the chassis is benign.

I have no doubt that the BRZ could be quicker than a hot hatch but as they come from the factory they are much slower. And it isn't just the tires.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

But just because a car isn't that layout doesn't mean it is inferior.

If you value things like steering feel and a lack of torque steer than yes it is inferior. It's inferior because it's a severely unbalanced car from a physics point of view.

And I'd like to see how well these electronic brake modulation e-Diffs work when your brakes are starting to fade on a road course.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Suberman

The fiesta isn't the only fwd car to beat the BRZ round a track. Not available in America but is popular in Europe: the Renault Clio and of course the R26.

The reason the newer hot hatches are so quick is the trick front diff. By transferring torque from the outside wheel to the inside wheel (Torsen) or by braking the inside wheel (electronic) so as to divert torque to the loaded outside wheel more cornering ability is extracted. Either way more of the available total torque hits the road.

Also, the rear roll stiffness is enhanced to allow as much load as possible to transfer to the outside rear wheel. In the old days this trick was applied to the front axles of standard cars set up for track work: BMW 2002, Alfa Romeo GTV and Ford Escorts were all famous for lifting the inside front wheel just as hot hatches lift their inside rear wheel. For the same reason but to compensate for drive at the other end of the car.

There is something not quite right in the BRZ rear suspension. It seems to roll oversteer at the limits of grip or perhaps the Torsen drives too much torque across the rear axles too abruptly. Anyway, I get snap oversteer when I'm not really expecting it, oddly with the traction control on. With the traction control completely off the car exhibits progressive behaviour at least so far. I've experienced oversteer only on lower friction surfaces with traction control off and the body roll has not been a significant factor. Under those conditions the chassis is benign.

I have no doubt that the BRZ could be quicker than a hot hatch but as they come from the factory they are much slower. And it isn't just the tires.

So why did an FR-S go from last place to first place around the track vs a WRX and a MazdaSpeed3 when all they did was replace the tires? Same driver. Same track. I would consider a WRX hatch and a Speed3 "hot hatches".
http://www.roadandtrack.com/special-...transformation

Both of those cars make significantly more hp/tq and the WRX has the AWD advantage as well. With the simple tire change the FR-S also went from last to first in the slalom and skidpad. Even with exact same size tires as the stock Primacy tires.

Bottomline, the cheapest and easiest upgrade you can make on your BRZ/FR-S is on the tires. And you don't have to spend a ton either. Jeeze, just watch this video again from the OP. The tires are clearly a major factor and anyone who is remotely serious about tracking the car will know the Primacy tires were never made for lap times. They are made for breaking traction so you can slide the car...