Ford Fiesta ST Beats Toyota GT86 on the Track in EVO Test

[Minhtyfresh]

I suppose some vehicle dynamics ccourses would help to put things in perspective. I'm sure you could find articles out there on what makes FWD and RWD vehicles handle so differently too.

The simplified version is this:
-The weight distribution across all 4 tires will be different (even at stand still) due to the configurations required to set up FWD vs RWD.
-The force vector from the driving tires is COMPLETELY different in both cases.

RWD: Force vector sits below and behind the center of gravity of the vehicle. The force vector is also always pushing towards the CG.

FWD: Force vector sits below and infront of the CG. The force vector always points in the direction you are STEERING towards.

Its difficult to show without a force diagram, but the only factor that matters when it comes to putting down power is your tires and the weight that you put on those tires. Its the same reason track cars will have stiffer suspensions and lower CG's, and that is to control the weight disribution evenly to the rubber that is trying to move you forward.

Different driving techniques can be used for both fwd and rwd, but at the end of the day rwd has more potential to deliver more power.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Minhtyfresh

Different driving techniques can be used for both fwd and rwd, but at the end of the day rwd has more potential to deliver more power.

And, at the end of the day AWD has more potential to deliver power than RWD.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

And, at the end of the day AWD has more potential to deliver power than RWD.

You know that comment is irrelevant to this conversation, right?

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

You know that comment is irrelevant to this conversation, right?

Not for me it's not. People are arguing that the FRZ is better than the Fiesta ST because it has more power/traction potential because it is RWD. I am simply stating that if power/traction potential is what we are judging cars on then my wife's 01 Legacy wagon is better than the FRZ and Fiesta ST because it is AWD and thus has even more potential for power!

Also, I really really really hate the RWD elitism on this forum so I like trying to take a stab at it whenever I can in hopes to piss off the RWD elitists. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[zephyr69]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Not for me it's not. People are arguing that the FRZ is better than the Fiesta ST because it has more power/traction potential because it is RWD. I am simply stating that if power/traction potential is what we are judging cars on then my wife's 01 Legacy wagon is better than the FRZ and Fiesta ST because it is AWD and thus has even more potential for power!

Also, I really really really hate the RWD elitism on this forum so I like trying to take a stab at it whenever I can in hopes to piss off the RWD elitists. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Not trying to sound condescending or anything..but I am slightly confused.

So you bought a rwd car thats is sort of designed to be tail happy and fun, signed up on a forum filled with owner who love/embrace rwd and to a certain extent are biased towards it, then you complain about rwd elitism...

You should have expected this all along.

[aspen]

I owned a Renault Clio 200 Cup before my GT86. It was great fun but it wasn't a sports car. The same can be said of the Fiesta. I'm sure it is fun and I'm sure that it is quick but that is fairly irrelevant to me.

When it comes to lap times, RWD isn't always better than FWD but for my own personal driving pleasure, I'll take RWD every time. I much prefer the way it feels.

Anyone getting hung up on a Fiesta being faster than the GT86/BRZ/FRS is missing the point. I certainly don't care what is faster around a circuit. If I did, I wouldnt have bought a GT86!

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by zephyr69

Not trying to sound condescending or anything..but I am slightly confused.

So you bought a rwd car thats is sort of designed to be tail happy and fun, signed up on a forum filled with owner who love/embrace rwd and to a certain extent are biased towards it, then you complain about rwd elitism...

You should have expected this all along.

I did and do expect it. Doesn't mean I can't poke at it. I expect a lot of stuff in life.

I used to belong to the Acura Legend forum, people there think Legends are the greatest cars ever. The Subaru forums, every one thinks symmetrical AWD is gods gift to mankind. The Honda forums, well you get the drift (no pun intended)... I just try to balance the bias a bit if I can.

Sometimes I just wish I could get more of the unexpected...

[zephyr69]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

I did and do expect it. Doesn't mean I can't poke at it. I expect a lot of stuff in life.

I used to belong to the Acura Legend forum, people there think Legends are the greatest cars ever. The Subaru forums, every one thinks symmetrical AWD is gods gift to mankind. The Honda forums, well you get the drift (no pun intended)... I just try to balance the bias a bit if I can.

Sometimes I just wish I could get more of the unexpected...

Nice pun. LOL

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Not for me it's not. People are arguing that the FRZ is better than the Fiesta ST because it has more power/traction potential because it is RWD. I am simply stating that if power/traction potential is what we are judging cars on then my wife's 01 Legacy wagon is better than the FRZ and Fiesta ST because it is AWD and thus has even more potential for power!

Also, I really really really hate the RWD elitism on this forum so I like trying to take a stab at it whenever I can in hopes to piss off the RWD elitists. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

No, there is no elitism going on here and we are not talking about absolutes, we are comparing RWD/FWD based on physics versus poor scientific method. I too have a Legacy GT (as do a ton of 86 owners here also have AWD subies/evos, etc.), so stop trolling or projecting.

I'll tell you what makes me tired on these forums too, people thinking that 86 owners are like the old Celica buyers where this is their first car. Many of us have done FWD, MR, RR, AWD, RWD with tons of power, engines, suspension configs, etc. so we aren't a bunch of noobs in a general sense. Some of us just want a more engaging daily beater w/ good mileage and lots of cargo room that we can take to the track for shits and giggles (designed as is) to go w/ the rest of our stable.

The issue is really about more engaging vehicle dynamics versus choosing a tall, porky FWD box w/ more cargo room. If I need that much space I'll buy a blown Raptor which will beat Fiestas while hauling 5 people, a trailer and a washer/dryer set.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by aspen

I owned a Renault Clio 200 Cup before my GT86. It was great fun but it wasn't a sports car. The same can be said of the Fiesta. I'm sure it is fun and I'm sure that it is quick but that is fairly irrelevant to me.

When it comes to lap times, RWD isn't always better than FWD but for my own personal driving pleasure, I'll take RWD every time. I much prefer the way it feels.

Anyone getting hung up on a Fiesta being faster than the GT86/BRZ/FRS is missing the point. I certainly don't care what is faster around a circuit. If I did, I wouldnt have bought a GT86!

its not really fair to give the drivetrain that much value when youre evaluating a whole car. when you do that, the frs doesnt even look that good. i could just as easily say i much prefer a car that doesnt suffer from having a 56/44 weight distribution or i much prefer a car with double wishbones over struts. yeah on paper rwd is better in more situations, but in practice the lines arent as clear. my crx and my msp were simply better than my ae86 and maybe even more fun than my miatas (maybe). i have a hard time believing that what i thought based on years of ownership is wrong.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

No, there is no elitism going on here and we are not talking about absolutes, we are comparing RWD/FWD based on physics versus poor scientific method. I too have a Legacy GT (as do a ton of 86 owners here also have AWD subies/evos, etc.), so stop trolling or projecting.

I'll tell you what makes me tired on these forums too, people thinking that 86 owners are like the old Celica buyers where this is their first car. Many of us have done FWD, MR, RR, AWD, RWD with tons of power, engines, suspension configs, etc. so we aren't a bunch of noobs in a general sense. Some of us just want a more engaging daily beater w/ good mileage and lots of cargo room that we can take to the track for shits and giggles (designed as is) to go w/ the rest of our stable.

The issue is really about more engaging vehicle dynamics versus choosing a tall, porky FWD box w/ more cargo room. If I need that much space I'll buy a blown Raptor which will beat Fiestas while hauling 5 people, a trailer and a washer/dryer set.

Maybe you didn't read the rest of this thread because you don't seem to realize how often the Which Car is Better Based on Driveline topic has come up.

Let me give you a quick break down. It started as "RWD is FASTER than FWD". A handful of people got on and said that was dumb because FWD cars can run plenty fast around a track and the Fiesta ST proves that. Then people started saying that RWD has better potential to be FASTER than FWD. I agree with that, BUT if you are going to say that and then use it as a reason that the FRZ is better than the Feista ST then you also have to concede that AWD has even more potential and that any AWD car is then better than the FRZ because it has even more potential to put down power...

^And that is how my original comment relates to the thread.

I don't think anyone is arguing which car is more fun. I am sure most people on here agree that the FRZ is probably more fun (despite the fact that almost no one on here has actually driven a Fiesta ST). People (me included) have argued though that just because the Fiesta ST is FWD does not mean it is for sure not fun.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

No, there is no elitism going on here and we are not talking about absolutes, we are comparing RWD/FWD based on physics versus poor scientific method. I too have a Legacy GT (as do a ton of 86 owners here also have AWD subies/evos, etc.), so stop trolling or projecting.

I'll tell you what makes me tired on these forums too, people thinking that 86 owners are like the old Celica buyers where this is their first car. Many of us have done FWD, MR, RR, AWD, RWD with tons of power, engines, suspension configs, etc. so we aren't a bunch of noobs in a general sense. Some of us just want a more engaging daily beater w/ good mileage and lots of cargo room that we can take to the track for shits and giggles (designed as is) to go w/ the rest of our stable.

The issue is really about more engaging vehicle dynamics versus choosing a tall, porky FWD box w/ more cargo room. If I need that much space I'll buy a blown Raptor which will beat Fiestas while hauling 5 people, a trailer and a washer/dryer set.

i think that we, as a forum, are a bunch of noobs. as individuals we might not be but the dozen threads talking about how to downshift or driving a manual in general is crazy. i think any car at this price point is going to be a noob magnet. it sucks if you care about that kind of thing.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Maybe you didn't read the rest of this thread because you don't seem to realize how often the Which Car is Better Based on Driveline topic has come up.

Let me give you a quick break down. It started as "RWD is FASTER than FWD". A handful of people got on and said that was dumb because FWD cars can run plenty fast around a track and the Fiesta ST proves that. Then people started saying that RWD has better potential to be FASTER than FWD. I agree with that, BUT if you are going to say that and then use it as a reason that the FRZ is better than the Feista ST then you also have to concede that AWD has even more potential and that any AWD car is then better than the FRZ because it has even more potential to put down power...

^And that is how my original comment relates to the thread.

I don't think anyone is arguing which car is more fun. I am sure most people on here agree that the FRZ is probably more fun (despite the fact that almost no one on here has actually driven a Fiesta ST). People (me included) have argued though that just because the Fiesta ST is FWD does not mean it is for sure not fun.

One of us certainly didn't read the thread because you are the first to bring up AWD which has nothing to do w/ the topic or the OP. You can always start a new one if you like.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

One of us certainly didn't read the thread because you are the first to bring up AWD which has nothing to do w/ the topic or the OP. You can always start a new one if you like.

I explained how it related... Can you really not see that saying the FRZ is better because RWD has more potential is invalid unless you are willing to say that my wife's 01 Subaru Legacy Wagon (not GT) is better than the FRZ in that it has more potential to put power down?

It's not about saying which one is better, it is about invalidating that argument...

Do I need a flow-chart or something?