Ford Fiesta ST Beats Toyota GT86 on the Track in EVO Test

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

It's a difference of expectation. I do expect more than just a couple of issues with a model year 1 specialty car that weighs significantly less than it's competitors.

The DI issue has been reported mostly by those who have tracked the car daily. Yes they may be accelerating the issue, but any car driven extremely hard is bound to have some type of failure. I agree that it is a situation to monitor closely.

100k miles is all that I'm expecting out if this car if it's going regularly to the track. If it requires a major repair after 100k of track visits and DD. I chalk that up to the way it's being used and maintained over some fatal flaw in the cars design. Perfect cars are rare and that's why they're special. Once again, it's an '86, not a Camry, Civic, or even a Fiesta (all passenger cars I'd expect to hit 150k with some care).

Nothing wrong with what you said there.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

more mod potential.

Actually the small turbo Ford engines have fantastic mod potential from what I've read over on the ST forums. More easy gains possible with a simple tune than with the already nearly optimized NA engine in the twins.

In fact Ford itself has already cooperated with one tuning house to release the Moutune upgrade package for Euro Fiesta STs that boosts hp and torque significantly - all under full warranty.

[Suberman]

One additional factor makes a difference in favour of the Ford ST, fwd actually corners better than rwd if insufficient power is available to consistently overpower the drive wheels.

This is the main reason hot hatches are so quick.

The fwd car will turn in better because as you turn the drive wheels the traction is directed towards the apex. Only as the cornering forces build does the fwd run out of talent. Obviously, the more power you have the earlier the fwd just washes out with understeer.

So for low torque outputs fwd will generally be quicker around a short circuit like Bedford.

The weight transfer effects actually sharpen this turn in which is why trail braking a fwd car late into the corner entry works even better than for rwd.

The advantage the GT86 ought to have is in powering out of the apex and that's when the basic chassis "flaw" (whether it's a flaw or not depends on how much you want low lap times or high cornering speeds, rather than showboating) shows up in the GT86. The Ford can't put all of the power down because the front wheels are still turning the car but the GT86 can't put the power down because it has too much roll stiffness at the rear. The BRZ should fair a bit better than the Toyota version but I think it is still too stiff in roll in the rear for really quick cornering. You just cannot put the torque to the road as quickly as the engine is capable of because the rear tires are still working too hard trying to turn the car.

Notice how ****ie Meaden can toss the Ford into the corner and get on the throttle early allowing the rear roll stiffness (that's what picks up that inside rear wheel) to keep the rear working hard while the front drive wheels are trying to get the torque down. For rwd the rear tires are already working overtime trying to get the power down and all the while the rear suspension is also using up tire grip.

Fitting a stiffer front bar would transform the BRZ/GT86/FRS on the track but would spoil the fun a bit. Oversteer is very slow. Those great four wheel drifts of the 50's and 60's race cars resulted from very poor tires. Nowadays you need understeer to be quick.

Funnily enough the Torsen diff helps a fwd and slows a rwd car. I think the Ford uses a purely electronic diff though.

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Actually the small turbo Ford engines have fantastic mod potential from what I've read over on the ST forums. More easy gains possible with a simple tune than with the already nearly optimized NA engine in the twins.

In fact Ford itself has already cooperated with one tuning house to release the Moutune upgrade package for Euro Fiesta STs that boosts hp and torque significantly - all under full warranty.

I was thinking of overall aftermarket for the entire vehicle being larger for the Twins vs. the Fiesta.

[Suberman]

In the US definitely not a big market, but worldwide? Not likely that the Twins will come close to this Ford design. The market worldwide for the Fiesta and Mazda 2 is huge. A small percentage of those customers is enough to prompt a significant aftermarket.

[Anaxilus]

No, you're confusing his comment. The Fiesta has a larger consumer market, the twins have vastly larger aftermarket support than the Fiesta and Mazda 2 combined. The 86 has some of the largest aftermarket support of any car I've seen at its launch which is one of the appeals.

I also disagree somewhat w/ your FWD/RWD analysis. FWD works as long as you don't overload the traction envelope which you recognized is inherently lower than RWD obviously since FWD puts braking, cornering and acceleration all on the front wheels. RWD never puts all three loads on the fronts, hence the inherent advantage. Not to mention weight distribution and packaging issues. I'd say some of what you see about driver behavior in the vids has just as much to do w/ the difference in tire compounds as it does FWD v. RWD. Just swap vids w/ different drivers and the FRS/BRZ laps faster than the Fiesta on the same track even w/ worse rubber. This is because FWD is easier for slower drivers to drive faster.

I agree that each has its merits, but benefits must be put into context w/ their costs (literally-tire wear).

[kuhlka]

-Anyone who reviews two cars without first matching up tires is a jackass and deliberately stacking their review. How many 86 owners are going to shell out over $600 for another set of the stock tires after they wear out? Derpa durr durr, stock for stock argument is null and void after XXX miles of ownership. Hell, people who give the tiniest crap about track performance are going to have a separate set of wheels for autoX or trackdays.

-I'd be surprised if you see anyone pumping gobs more power out of the Fiesta ST. The 86 on the other hand has been successfully kicked up to around 450whp before stuff starts to break.

-The Fiesta is a 5-door for a totally different audience. Part of why I bought my BRZ is because I DIDN'T want people to look at me and go, "Hey, Rob can give us a ride!" Sorry guys, 2 doors and no leg room. My wife and I already have a 4-door STI for racing and a 5-door Prius for fuel economy.

-Why would I buy 'American' if the damn vehicle isn't Made In America? Sorry, Ford, but unless you're building the ST models (and dammit build the Focus RS in the states) in the USA, I'm not interested.

-Ken Block... I bought my 05 STI before Ken Block started doing his gymkhana videos and made all the fanboys jump onto the Subaru bandwagon. Now they're off to Ford.

-I've had FWD cars before and hated the torque-steer and understeer. I miss my old 03 Civic Si (woman turned in front of my wife at an intersection, wife lifeflight'd, no bones broken, car took the hit like a champ but was crumpled all the way to the hatch), but it didn't like turns at all and didn't have the effortless driving feel my BRZ offers. When I'm hauling ass through a set of twisties, the BRZ just goes where I point it. Even when it breaks the rear loose during autoX it goes into a nice controlled drift. You won't get that with a FWD car.

-Holy crap does that thing look like a baby shoe. The only thing I like about it is the grille, but I'd rather have a Focus RS or Please God Subaru make a COOL hatch STI. The last one looked like a damn Corolla. My BRZ has beautiful lines everywhere and actually makes me want to wash it when dirty. It's like art on wheels.

-The name Fiesta makes me think of Taco salad. BRZ (Boxer-Engined RWD Zenith) makes me grin.

-Lastly, my experience with my 05 STI is why I'll probably be a long-term Subaru loyalist. I've done 1,100 mile days and had the car to every edge of the USA (Detroit, Dallas, LBC, Baltimore). It's been to hell and back and still runs strong. Now that I've got a BRZ as my daily, the STI will become ridiculous over time. Subaru has made a beautifully-iconic driver's car with worlds of upgrade-ability. This is going to be one of those cars that just sets the bar for all other vehicles. Just wait, the reviews are going to be hilarious if/when Toyobaru puts a factory turbo/supercharger and Brembos on the 86.

[Dazza]

Originally Posted by kuhlka

The name Fiesta makes me think of Taco salad. BRZ (Boxer-Engined RWD Zenith) makes me grin.

[Sport-Tech]

The value of opinions from those who haven't driven the car....

Do a hard and thorough comparison test drive and make your own mind up.

Significant understeer has not been a complaint raised in any of the Fiesta ST reviews I've read, and there are several videos posted showing it oversteering around corners when a bit of trail braking is applied.

On the looks - I think it's a car that grows on you with time, kind of like the front end of the BRZ, but it's never going to look like a sports car - it's a cute hot hatch.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Suberman

The fwd car will turn in better because as you turn the drive wheels the traction is directed towards the apex.

I'm still trying to figure out what that means. I can't think of many situations where you're turning into a corner under power. Most of the time (at least on the track or autocross), you're off the throttle or even on the brakes (trail-braking). Not sure how directing the drive wheels to the apex would make for better turn-in.

From what I understand, a FWD car with heavy front weight distribution will have worse turn-in than a RWD car with a more balanced weight distribution. This is due to how the tires get loaded and the effect of centripetal force on the car's center of gravity. With a FWD car with a front-biased CG, that centripetal force has a greater effect on the front end of the car than the rear, making for worse turn-in and washing the front end out (understeer).

Now suspension tuning will come into play (and you can dial-out understeer by increasing roll stiffness in the rear), but as a general statement, I think it'd be a mistake to say that FWD cars have better turn-in than RWD cars based on the direction the drive wheels are pointing.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

The value of opinions from those who haven't driven the car....

Do a hard and thorough comparison test drive and make your own mind up.

Significant understeer has not been a complaint raised in any of the Fiesta ST reviews I've read, and there are several videos posted showing it oversteering around corners when a bit of trail braking is applied.

On the looks - I think it's a car that grows on you with time, kind of like the front end of the BRZ, but it's never going to look like a sports car - it's a cute hot hatch.

I agree with this. None of us have driven the FiST, so we can only really speculate by watching others drive it. I might be skeptical, but I'm withholding judgment on this (and the MK7 GTI) until I get a chance to drive them hard. Who knows, maybe I'll trade in the MK6.

[Suberman]

Turn in on the street I mean.

On the track or rally course left foot braking (or a handbrake) is generally used to rotate a fwd car entering the corner.

Before the traction envelope is used up a fwd car can corner and accelerate harder than rwd car. This is why hot hatches can easily be set up to beat the BRZ.

More power than the drive wheels can handle easily is required to switch the advantage back to rwd.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Turn in on the street I mean.

On the track or rally course left foot braking (or a handbrake) is generally used to rotate a fwd car entering the corner.

Before the traction envelope is used up a fwd car can corner and accelerate harder than rwd car. This is why hot hatches can easily be set up to beat the BRZ.

More power than the drive wheels can handle easily is required to switch the advantage back to rwd.

Sorry that still doesn't make sense to me conceptually. Why would a FWD car be able to corner harder than a RWD car before the traction envelope is used up? If anything, the FWD car is carrying more mass up front. I would think physics would say (and I'm simplifying here) that the more weight you're carrying up front, the slower the turn-in.

I can tell you from experience that in all conditions (whether on the street or on the track, whether the traction envelope is used up or not), my FWD GTI has much worse turn-in than my RWD FR-S. And it's not even close. Granted, this is only one example and there are a bunch of unaccounted factors (suspension, tires, etc.), but I've got a lot of seat time in both cars in a variety of situations.

With neutral throttle, the GTI turns in slower. Under power, the GTI will spin its inside wheel and turn in slower. Under braking, the GTI turns in slower.

[Anaxilus]

I can make the Fiesta exceed its traction envelope and become slower than the BRZ for everyone. Swap stock tires w/ each other. Of course this isn't needed because the Fiesta is simply not faster in the right driver's hands which many videos have proven. Just compare the times below w/ the OP's video. Same track, different drivers, different spring rates, maybe even different stock tires (Michelin Primacy versus Bridgestone Turanza).

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3hgleEOXA"]Subaru BRZ vs Ford Mustang! - Head 2 Head Episode 7 - YouTube[/ame]