DI pump Internals - Page 2 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Area86 · 07-16-2013, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gixxersixxerman

Thank you for doing the research and drawing this up..

Do you see anything that would make the "ethanol is the cause" plausible.. If not why do you think other countries do not report this problem? I love finding out this stuff, knowledge is power type stuff..

Or better yet, we have a guy that's on E85, no noise at all.. Switches to 91, immediately starts the crickets, do you have a theory as to why??

Yes I have been on e85 since November with no crickets and I switched back to 91 last week and they were back instantly. I will be going back to e85 after this tank and will see if they go away again.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

WHITE · 07-16-2013, 10:56 PM

Here i was hoping my pump would eat itself and id have a reason to open it up and see how it all works and what i can do to improve it.

My crickets died at 3500 miles, and returned around 3800 miles, i love my zombie crickets even more.

SkullWorks · 07-16-2013, 11:06 PM

Yes, obviously I took a pump apart, There will be pictures of that soon enough but in a different thread with a different purpose.

The problem with addressing the E-85 / E-10 / Ethanol Free / 93 / calpis 91 /chicken McNugget smoothie debacle is that there are lots of conflicting statements. I haven't seen a RULE so to speak in specific usage of gas that allows all parties to not have crickets. I haven't done an exhaustive comparison of cases of cricket vs Fuel. I generally run Chevron (in lieu of Texaco) or Shell gas and have had the crickets come and go randomly, some times in the middle of a tank. I don't think there are many automotive manufacturing Giants running around making ethanol un-friendly BRAND NEW part numbers for fuel systems,,,maybe I have too much faith in humanity

SkullWorks · 07-16-2013, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gixxersixxerman

Thank you for doing the research and drawing this up..

Do you see anything that would make the "ethanol is the cause" plausible.. If not why do you think other countries do not report this problem? I love finding out this stuff, knowledge is power type stuff..

Or better yet, we have a guy that's on E85, no noise at all.. Switches to 91, immediately starts the crickets, do you have a theory as to why??

There are 3 "soft parts" in the pump the rubber-like seal (RED) the O-ring
I described and the valve-stem type seal that sits outside of this assembly. If there was an "incompatible" material in this assembly that is subjected to movement related to engine RPM I would have to say it would be one of those 3 items.

I didn't see any way any of those parts (even in complete failure) could cause a noise of such volume...being inherently soft as they are...even the seal and O-ring shown above don't do any actual restraining...at first they appear to perhaps but the piston to pump body clearance is in the realm of .0002 generally, if deflection occurred there would be a much more tragic sound, I saw no wear patterns on the DLC coating on the piston nor on the pump's cylinder walls to indicate any deflection was occurring.

Perhaps the pump shaft squeaks as it runs through the seal?

I'm open to logical discussion.

empower-auto · 07-17-2013, 02:57 PM

bump for posterity.

ft_sjo · 07-17-2013, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

Yes, obviously I took a pump apart, There will be pictures of that soon enough but in a different thread with a different purpose.

The problem with addressing the E-85 / E-10 / Ethanol Free / 93 / calpis 91 /chicken McNugget smoothie debacle is that there are lots of conflicting statements. I haven't seen a RULE so to speak in specific usage of gas that allows all parties to not have crickets. I haven't done an exhaustive comparison of cases of cricket vs Fuel. I generally run Chevron (in lieu of Texaco) or Shell gas and have had the crickets come and go randomly, some times in the middle of a tank. I don't think there are many automotive manufacturing Giants running around making ethanol un-friendly BRAND NEW part numbers for fuel systems,,,maybe I have too much faith in humanity

Well they chirp here in the UK, on no more than 5% ethanol content fuel.

HunterGreene · 07-17-2013, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Well they chirp here in the UK, on no more than 5% ethanol content fuel.

Well, this is the first mention I have seen of the chirp outside of North America.

BadMoon · 07-17-2013, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Well they chirp here in the UK, on no more than 5% ethanol content fuel.

I find this whole ethanol thing interesting now. I'm on my third tank of ethanol free gas and its chirping away. Could be the OP is spot on.

markitect · 07-17-2013, 05:59 PM

Is the pump made by Subaru/Toyota, or is it sourced from a supplier (Denso, Bosch)?

SkullWorks · 07-17-2013, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markitect

Is the pump made by Subaru/Toyota, or is it sourced from a supplier (Denso, Bosch)?

Hard to say.

If I was more familiar with the part number designation of the major manufacturers it would be easier I assume. It is VERY similar in foot print to one of the audi pumps I have done R&D on and that specific pump had several manufacturers and revisions....but this is different from each of those.

It is definitely something that FHI could make if they so desired, hyundai also makes alot of these as do Denso, Bosch, and others i assume aswell.

SkullWorks · 07-17-2013, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marchy

is there any way to hook the pump on to a machine that can test it out to see if it makes the noise still? I know for the HPFP on the speed 3 and audi's there's a local company here in the seattle area that will test every pump he sells. he just won't test pump internals.

I haven't pulled apart a head and cam to check the installed position relative to the lobe that drives the pump...so I couldn't do an effective study.

Which Shop are you referring to in Seatte?

ft_sjo · 07-18-2013, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marchy

His shop is called torq motorsports but he sells his fuel pumps through another company called hpfpupgrade.

If he can do sustained testing in a temperature controlled environment then that'd be a decent test. I don't think putting a cold pump on test for 30 seconds would be adequate to prove or disprove anything to do with chirping.

yahtzee · 07-18-2013, 06:00 AM

Mine started a about 300 miles ago I'm at 3000 now coincided with warmer summer temps and only noticeable when car warmed up at idle not cold I'm in uk and only used shell vpower.

Will

Tromatic · 07-20-2013, 12:22 AM

Could it be something other than the pump itself? Perhaps the mount, or even the fuel flow at idle (some sort of fluid dynamics thing) causing the noise? The pump itself resonating? Cavitation? Water in the fuel boiling? All SWAGS.

So far, I do not have the chirp running e-free fuel.

Anyway, THANKS for this.

07-17-2013, 02:57 PM	#19
empower-auto Kouki-Monster Join Date: May 2012 Drives: 2013 Scion FR-S Location: Saskatoon, SK Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 11 Thanked 562 Times in 261 Posts Mentioned: 6 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	bump for posterity. __________________ Rich Anderson EMPOWER AUTO

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07-16-2013, 10:56 PM	#16
WHITE Thats pretty neat Join Date: Jun 2013 Drives: LOADING...... Location: Wilkes-barre, pa Posts: 201 Thanks: 114 Thanked 95 Times in 67 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Here i was hoping my pump would eat itself and id have a reason to open it up and see how it all works and what i can do to improve it. My crickets died at 3500 miles, and returned around 3800 miles, i love my zombie crickets even more.

07-16-2013, 11:06 PM	#17
SkullWorks Banned Join Date: Mar 2012 Drives: SSM LT MT BRZ Location: SoCal Posts: 1,033 Thanks: 803 Thanked 754 Times in 328 Posts Mentioned: 23 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Yes, obviously I took a pump apart, There will be pictures of that soon enough but in a different thread with a different purpose. The problem with addressing the E-85 / E-10 / Ethanol Free / 93 / calpis 91 /chicken McNugget smoothie debacle is that there are lots of conflicting statements. I haven't seen a RULE so to speak in specific usage of gas that allows all parties to not have crickets. I haven't done an exhaustive comparison of cases of cricket vs Fuel. I generally run Chevron (in lieu of Texaco) or Shell gas and have had the crickets come and go randomly, some times in the middle of a tank. I don't think there are many automotive manufacturing Giants running around making ethanol un-friendly BRAND NEW part numbers for fuel systems,,,maybe I have too much faith in humanity

07-17-2013, 05:59 PM	#23
markitect Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Drives: Scion FRS Location: Michigan Posts: 216 Thanks: 17 Thanked 59 Times in 39 Posts Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Is the pump made by Subaru/Toyota, or is it sourced from a supplier (Denso, Bosch)?

07-18-2013, 06:00 AM	#27
yahtzee Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Drives: GT86 Location: Yorkshire, England Posts: 20 Thanks: 3 Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Mine started a about 300 miles ago I'm at 3000 now coincided with warmer summer temps and only noticeable when car warmed up at idle not cold I'm in uk and only used shell vpower. Will

07-20-2013, 12:22 AM	#28
Tromatic Banned Join Date: May 2013 Drives: FR-S Location: Portland, OR Posts: 2,232 Thanks: 61 Thanked 1,728 Times in 786 Posts Mentioned: 19 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Could it be something other than the pump itself? Perhaps the mount, or even the fuel flow at idle (some sort of fluid dynamics thing) causing the noise? The pump itself resonating? Cavitation? Water in the fuel boiling? All SWAGS. So far, I do not have the chirp running e-free fuel. Anyway, THANKS for this.

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