From Challenger to BRZ!?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by manwithnoname

...but to be honest, it’s a friggen boat...

With the Challenger, I feel like I don’t know my surroundings very well, and can only guess at where the front of my car is in relation to what’s in front of me.

Turning and backing out with the Challenger is a game of guesstimation every time...

The Challenger is extremely difficult to park... which makes me not want to drive the car...

I have a feeling I won’t miss the horsepower/torque of the Challenger.

...I would be dropping my monthly payment down by about $150 and predict saving about $70 in gas per month.

I love... to take the twisty-turnies, but in the Challenger, it’s not all that much fun. It feels more like a solid tank that I am maneuvering. It feels very disconnected.

...most of the people that want to talk to me are thuggish gang-banger wanna-be types.

It sounds to me like what you need is literally any other car that isn't a big mushy muscle car. A BRZ meets all of those requirements.

[thill]

I think most people have hit the nail on the head. Understanding this forum is going to be biased of course

I am 42. I don't feel too old for the BRZ. I don't know if that helps or not. There is a poll on the FR-S forum around age and you would be surprised how many people are over 30 years old driving these cars. Face it, many late teens, early 20's cannot afford a $25-30K car. As the car ages and more used cars are available uner $15K I expect it will change..

On the negative side of the BRZ, the backseat is pretty useless if you have to haul other adults or even teenagers. There is very little legroom, and I am sure your Challenger is bigger back there.

Otherwise, it really seems like the right move based on your very well thought out post. I personally am not an American Muscle car guy. Never have been for the reasons you highlight.

[DarkSunrise]

Have you looked into a GTI? I have an FR-S and GTI and love them both, but based on your list of concerns, it sounds like you might be happier with a car like the GTI.

1) Driving experience -- the GTI is as short lengthwise as an FR-S so it's equally easy to maneuver and park. Visibility is good.

2) Ride height -- the GTI is much taller than the FR-S, and puts you about eye-level with other cars. You definitely feel less likely to get run over in it.

3) Power -- a stock GTI has much better passing power than the FR-S, unless you downshift the FR-S. A $600 tune on the GTI yields 300 lbs-ft of torque.

4) Cost -- base GTI is cheaper than the FR-S, and has similar EPA mileage ratings. GTI w/DSG: 24/33. FR-S w/auto: 25/34. Both come with 2y free maint, 3y/36k warranties, and 5y/60k powertrain.

5) Comfort -- GTI is more comfortable, has more interior space, and nicer interior than the FR-S.

6) Driving style -- here the GTI clearly loses. On winding backroads, the GTI will be better than the Challenger, but not even close to where the FR-S is.

7) Bounce -- stock GTI is more compliant over bumps than an FR-S.

8) Attention -- my GTI doesn't really draw any attention compared with my FR-S which gets comments from strangers all the time (gas stations, parking lots, etc.)

9) Unwanted competition -- same as #8

10) Age group -- I see more older GTI drivers than FR-S drivers, for what it's worth. The older GTI drivers usually have bone-stock cars.

[mit_peid]

I'm 34, own a FRS, and love it more than any other car I've owned prior. Given how Subaru positioned the BRZ in the market.... the BRZ must be targeting at least a year or two older demographic compared to the FRS. But f all that bs... just buy it.

[GNS]

Hello all,


Long-time lurker, first time poster…
As the title says, I’m currently driving a 2010 DodgeChallenger R/T Classic (stripe package, old school chrome wheels, etc), but I’mleaning toward getting into a BRZ. Scratch that, I’ve been researching them,reading the forums, and have just gone to a dealer and worked out a prettydecent deal to get into a BRZ. I’m not sure how to say this, but I think I needsome convincing that the move to the BRZ is a good one….

Here’s why:

1. DRIVING EXPERIENCE: I love the look of myChallenger, but to be honest, it’s a friggen boat. With the Challenger, I feellike I don’t know my surroundings very well, and can only guess at where thefront of my car is in relation to what’s in front of me. The BRZ being so lightand low to the ground, just makes me feel connected to the road, and thefrontal visibility is amazing. Interestingly enough, I’ve heard a lot ofcomplaints about rear visibility, but I didn’t have any issue. Maybe it’sbecause I’m currently driving a Challenger though, which has pretty limitedvisibility. Turning and backing out with the Challenger is a game ofguesstimation every time, whereas in the BRZ, I feel a level of confidence thatI haven’t felt in a long time. The Challenger is extremely difficult to park,and requires a lot of room to squeeze in between other cars, which makes me notwant to drive the car unless I know there’s gonna be a huge empty parking area.Do you guys feel a different level of confidence in the BRZ than other largercars? Do you feel like it’s an easy car to park compared to others?

I was just about to say that the Challenger is like a boat. The BRZ (and FR-S) will resolve all of your issues above as far as parking, visibility, handling, etc. Simple to park even in reverse and parallel.

2. RIDE HEIGHT: While the Challenger and the BRZ have very similar ground clearance, Isit much higher in the Challenger than in the BRZ. I’m a bit concerned aboutbeing so low to the ground. I feel being so low to the ground, and looking upat other cars kinda makes me feel squashable hehe. Does being low to the groundhave any effect on your feeling of safety? Do those concerns go away? Thisisn’t a deal breaker for me, just a curiousity.

Nope. No concern. I had a Prelude a long time ago, and I'm used to it.

3. POWER: Sure my Challenger has got a ton ofhorsepower, but really, I’m a very cautious driver, and rarely spin the tires.So the only time I really get to use the power is passing people on thefreeway. At stoplights, this nearly 5,000lb car is usually last off the line asit lumbers across the intersection. So I guess what I’m trying to say is thecar is kinda all show and no-go for me. Which is fine. I don’t need to becompeting for “first to get a $450 ticket from the CHP” for 20 seconds of fun. Ialmost feel like the BRZ gets off the line quicker than the Challenger. I havea feeling I won’t miss the horsepower/torque of the Challenger. And yes, Idrive Auto, and plan to get an auto BRZ (don’t hate, I just sit in stop-and-gotraffic all morning and evening, and had knee surgery on my right-knee anddon’t want to cause any more damage there). I have no intentions of trackingthe car, I just want to drive it. Does the BRZ have decent passing power? Myexperiences on the freeway were limited.

5000lbs? I think it's closer to 4100lbs or so, but holy hell is that heavy. Is this the one with the non-functional hood scoop? Also, I think the Challenger RT only comes in auto.

As for decent passing power...just downshift one or two gears. It's not powerful, but it is light and it has enough torque to chirp the tires a little if you jam on it in the right gear. Don't be concerned about the BRZ's power, it has just enough to be decent. I'd be a lot more concerned about the bathtub on wheels you're driving, because 4100lbs is a fat porker of a vehicle, and it sounds like the antihesis of the BRZ/FR-S.

4. COST: With the deal I am getting into, I wouldbe dropping my monthly payment down by about $150 and predict saving about $70in gas per month. While it’s not huge, it’s nice! Since I’ll be getting theautomatic, I’ll expect great MPG compared to the 15 I’m getting now.

$220 savings per month?! Better than 15 MPG? Dump that Dodge piece of trash asap, there is a reason why they call them Dumpmestics. I'm sorry to say this and to keep making obvious my distaste for most of these American cars (with few exceptions like the Corvette, etc), but the Challenger RT is basically a Hot Wheels car - all show, way too many retro influences including the way it abuses its owner in terms of interior quality, handling, insurance, gas cost, etc. Of course, my two months in a rental Aveo did not do much to change my view on most of the cars made by the Big 3.

5. COMFORT: The Challenger is super comfortable.Tons of room, nice leather, and a high ceiling. Suprisingly the inside of theBRZ (Limited) wasn’t all that different. In fact, I found the back-huggingseats to feel really nice. The Challenger interior seems really refined incomparison (yet still very simple) but I think I will be OK with the BRZinterior. Any major thoughts on how much of change I’m in for by going from theChallenger interior to the BRZ?

Take a look next time at the footwell of the BRZ, it is surprisingly roomy. Major thoughts: practically unusable back seats, low seating posture.

6. DRIVING STYLE: I love going up to the hills(Highway 9 in Northern California) to take the twisty-turnies, but in theChallenger, it’s not all that much fun. It feels more like a solid tank that Iam maneuvering. It feels very disconnected. I expect that with the BRZ, I willbe feeling every twist and every turn, and enjoying the connection to the road(and the elevated visibility).

Yet another thing that the BRZ is in total opposition compared to the Challenger - curving roads will be fun.

7. BOUNCY BOUNCE: I noticed that when I was takingthe BRZ out for test drives that with every major change in pavement, the carwould bounce heavily. I’m used to my Challenger being very rigid when I hitbumps: It’s like when I hit, it’s a sudden shock, but it is smooth. With theBRZ, it is almost like I experienced one big jostle, then a few minoraftershocks each time I hit a bump in the pavement. Does this get better withtime as the car is broken in, does the drive get used to it, and maybe moreimportantly, does it drive your girlfriend/boyfriend/passenger crazy?

8. ATTENTION: The Challenger is a comment magnet.Not so much now as a year or more ago, but it seems almost every time I go tothe gas station someone wants to interact with me. It’s a love-hate kinda thingwith me because while it feels cool to have people comment and be interested,most of the people that want to talk to me are thuggish gang-banger wanna-be types.It seems like the people who are drawn to the BRZ are kinda all-over the map,not just thugs.

9. UNWANTED COMPETITION: The Camaro’s, Mustangs, and(strangely enough) Chargers all seem to want to have a stare-down with me. Itdrives me crazy. It’s just a car…. So I’m kinda sick of the whole “my engine isfaster than yours” attitude. It’s as mature as the stupid Calvin and Hobbesstickers that so many people have where Calvin is pissing on another carbrand’s logo. It’s easy for me to ignore, but it’s still annoying. How bad isthe competitive contact when driving a BRZ?

Unfortunately for you, that's the kind of audience that these large showboat domestic vehicles attract. The BRZ still attracts attention, but they tend to be of the better educated, less stabby kind.

10. AGE GROUP: Last but not least, I’m 35. Am I toodamn old for a BRZ? While the majority of people I see driving BRZ’s in the BayArea seem to be around 30, the FR-S crowd seems to be a bit younger. I don’twant to seem like an old-fart driving the hip kids car! I’m not really serious,I just feel like I’m overstepping some imaginary age boundary.

Any insights anyone can providewould be much appreciated!

Thanks!
-Manwithnoname

It seems to me that driving the BRZ (and FR-S) requires a certain kind of tacit understanding with like-minded drivers, which is that you recognize what a real sports car is and that you don't need non-functional hood scoops (as on your Challenger) to inflate your ego, or a fancy sounding V8 engine only making 372hp in a 4100lb + boat anchor to measure ****s with.

Since you're here, dissatisfied with your Challenger, we can assume that you're seeing the Challenger for what it really is - a fat ass car with a garbage interior and all sorts of American rice body kit tack ons. I don't know how you managed to put up with a 4100lb 15mpg boat that makes you break out in cold sweat whenever you try to park it, but I wouldn't touch that piece of crap with a 10ft pole. Dump it and go for the BRZ.

[Shizuma]

I came from a 05 Magnum RT, which for all intents is the same as your Challenger, same engine, transmission, platform, maybe 50-100 heavier to a BRZ, also auto so I can tell you my feeling on the switch.

1) Honestly as far as viability goes I don't find it any better than the Magnum was, I'm not sure if the Challenger is worse than the Magnum though, and for telling where the ends of the car is, I notice no difference, once I drive a car for a while I know where the corners are and have no problem regardless of car. It's definitely far easier to park than the Magnum, but that's simply because it's significantly smaller so that's to be expected.

2) You get used to it, but I personally do miss the higher seating position of the Magnum.

3) After test driving the BRZ (also auto) I thought I wouldn't miss the power, I was wrong, while the BRZ is great on the highway and has good passing power and is generally a blast to drive, from like 0-15MPG it's a dog and remind me of driving my old 98 Dodge neon I had several car ago, it just has way to little low end torque (or high end for that matter) and struggles off the line, especially coming from a Hemi with 390ft-lbs.

4) You'll save a ton on gas, I was averaging about 17MPG on my Magnum, I'm averaging 34MPG on the BRZ.

5) the BRZ really is pretty comfortable and doesn't feel cramped at all, at least in the front seats, probably the only annoyance I find is the cup holder placement, which kind of sucks and is awkward to grab your drink while driving. As far as comfort when it comes to noise the the BRZ is noisy as hell, not the engine, but the road noise, it's awful, I plan on getting some MLV and sound deading the car it's simply that bad compared to the Magnum, and it's a rattle box, those crappy little 6 1/2 speakers in the door that put out hardly any bass rattle the hell out of the car, vs the Magnum with a pair of 12" subs that hardly rattled at all, the BRZ simply isn't as solid of a car in that regards, which is expected since they went for all out weight saving in it.

6) The BRZ is definitely more fun around windy roads, that's probably where the car feels best, and most fun.

7) 20k miles and nope, that hasn't gotten any better, I mean it's not awful for a sports car, but compared to the Magnum, yup, not as comfortable of a ride, that being said neither my girlfriend or my grandmother has ever complained about it being too bad, I will say it's way better than the Dakota R/T 5.9 I had before the Magnum, now that thing was awful.

8) I got some attention when it was new, and even still a little now, but never anywhere near the attention I got with the Magnum when it was new.

9) About the same as it was in the Magnum.

10) I'm 36, so personally I don't see anything wrong with being in that age group and driving a BRZ.


Aside from that though, honestly in a year or two once the refreshed Challenger comes out which will have the newer 8 speed auto which means 31MPG highway with the V6 I will very likely be switching from my BRZ to a Challenger, don't get me wrong, I love the car, but it's just too damn small and it's lack of cargo space and inability to comfortably carry more than one passenger is killing me, especially coming from something as large as the Magnum, which had more space in the "trunk" area than the BRZ has in the trunk and back seat combined.

[WolfpackS2k]

5000lbs? I think it's closer to 4100lbs or so, but holy hell is that heavy. Is this the one with the non-functional hood scoop? Also, I think the Challenger RT only comes in auto.

Pretty sure its available with a stick. The Charger (sedan) isn't available with a stick.

[oldlostcory]

I've only had the car a little over a month. But that said:

2. I actually feel safer in a smaller car like this because it is so easily maneuverable. I feel less safe in big trucks and soft sedans because how they sway, take up so much of the road and also lack feeling in the steering wheel.

4. I have a manual that I drive about 50%hwy / 25%city / 25%backroad spirited fun, I am average about 28mpg. I am trying to drive more eco friendly this tank and I am at about 30mpg on half a tank so far. I think I could easily hit 32mpg on my daily drive if I really stuck to it.

6. If you are taking the car up to the hills, then you will love the BRZ. It is such a joy to drive on tight roads. It makes you feel alive.

8. I have got a few people asking about it and some others giving me thumbs up but I have actually been underwhelmed by the attention I thought I'd get. I have not had a single car try to race me.

10. I am 31, I know not quite 35. I've seen plenty of much older folks than us that love this car. Some of the best compliments I've gotten were from people well into their 50s and 60s.

[Lonewolf]

We shouldn't have to sell you on the car...either you want it and are comfortable buying it or you're not...

[ecdhunt]

Couple quick comments:

I'm 41, came from a BMW 135i with M-sport package, and I feel more attached to my BRZ than anything since the first truck I had when I was 16!

Plus spending 45% less on fuel is cool too...

[radroach]

Thanks for the comparison! There are times that I wish I had a Challenger rather than a BRZ, like last month when I took a several thousand mile road trip, sounding and feeling nicer at highway cruising speed. A challenger also probably looks better at a route 66 diner than my BRZ did.

Of course, the BRZ is a purpose built sports car - it only comes in basically 2 flavors (auto or manual) where the Dodge comes in 5-6 different varieties of engine options. And what the BRZ does good, it does very well for me. Unfortunately it lacks class in some areas, like engine and road noise; I compared mine to a mazdaspeed 3 today and the mazda was much more refined as a regular car on engine noise, seat feel and interior looks, so it's easy to see where the 86 lacks in terms of modern refinement.

And for the last point on unwanted attention, you'll get plenty of that too, or even more of that in a BRZ at the lower height - perfect for jackasses with holes cut in their exhaust to fart their exhaust at you when your windows are down.

[evof3nd3r]

Originally Posted by ecdhunt

Plus spending 45% less on fuel is cool too...

No joke... 14 MPG truck went 220 miles for $75. Now I can do nearly 300 on a tank that costs $40 to fill up, around here.

Yup, from 34 cents per mile to 14 cents per mile.

[thill]

Originally Posted by radroach

Thanks for the comparison! There are times that I wish I had a Challenger rather than a BRZ, like last month when I took a several thousand mile road trip, sounding and feeling nicer at highway cruising speed. A challenger also probably looks better at a route 66 diner than my BRZ did.

Of course, the BRZ is a purpose built sports car - it only comes in basically 2 flavors (auto or manual) where the Dodge comes in 5-6 different varieties of engine options. And what the BRZ does good, it does very well for me. Unfortunately it lacks class in some areas, like engine and road noise; I compared mine to a mazdaspeed 3 today and the mazda was much more refined as a regular car on engine noise, seat feel and interior looks, so it's easy to see where the 86 lacks in terms of modern refinement.

And for the last point on unwanted attention, you'll get plenty of that too, or even more of that in a BRZ at the lower height - perfect for jackasses with holes cut in their exhaust to fart their exhaust at you when your windows are down.

I am a big Mazda guy and I cross-shopped a 3Speed and I felt the interior was way to busy and the plastic was uber hard and cheap to the touch. The car was a blast to drive (minus the torque steer), but the MPG was really poor (plan on about 17-19mpg combined) and the exterior styling overstyled (like the interior). The steering wheel alone had like 20 buttons on it. I really wanted to like the car but just could not. I thought the BRZ Limited interior was actually simpler, more sporty, and used better materials.

[Slash]

I just traded my heavily modded ms3 for my Frs. Don't buy the ms3... You'd be making a mistake. The power is completely unusable. After a year of driving around a 300whp fwd car I couldnt take it. The Frs is just a better car.

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