Sports cars: a mid-market hole?

[OrangeJuleas]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Actually, I feel like Honda is in a really good position to do this. Make a mid-engine car with CRZ powertrain but a bored out L15 (though that 89mm stroke is a bit of a problem). Just pick the CRZ guts off the assembly line and drop into another chassis pretty much. Or maybe certify the R16 for EU/US and use that. If it's a mild hybrid, no one will complain about low end torque either since the electric motor adds like 70% more torque at idle. I would be down to put down a good chunk of money for that, and it would cost Honda close to nothing. In fact I would buy a mid-engined CRZ with the exact powertrain they offered, but then again I am the crazy owner of an MR2 Spyder.

Man, if they made the CRZ a MR non-hybrid car (like a K20 behind the driver) with a slightly lower center of gravity, that really would have been a contender for people getting the FRS/BRZ. That would have been one hot tamale!

Also, I know it's more of a luxury oriented car, but one that I love is the Volvo C30 R-Design. Six speed manual, 2.5L engine pushing 227hp/236tq, FF layout (I know, this changes everything). Also, you get a free trip to Scandinavia with the purchase of a new Volvo!

*Hinting at Toyota* How about that trip to Japan to see my *86* being built?

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Yes, 3rd generation was an abject failure due to the trunk space. RMR cars are difficult to work on; the maintenance on them will always cost more simply due to labor. That's another reason you don't see an entry level RMR...people looking at entry level sports cars are NOT looking for expensive maintenance and usually can't afford it anyway.

It is actually one of the easier cars that I have worked on in my lifetime. And in 43 years of driving I have worked on a lot of cars.

Originally Posted by ZDan

3rd gen MR2 was also a failure because it was freaking HIDEOUS. I would have bought one if they hadn't been so damned hard to look at. How they managed to make a small roadster look so boring and slab-sided is beyond me. About as sexy a shape as a bar of Dial soap...

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Don't forget the bug-eyed headlights, uggh, they really dropped the ball on that design

Originally Posted by ZDan

Indeed...

It may be an acquired taste but I love my little Spyder!

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Rampage

It is actually one of the easier cars that I have worked on in my lifetime. And in 43 years of driving I have worked on a lot of cars.

95% of people buying cars don't work on them. Hell, most car guys don't. Some enthusiasts do. That's the breakdown the way I see it.

Anyway, the SW20 an acquaintance of mine had was a PITA to work on.

[DarkSunrise]

To cut costs in R&D and production, car manufacturers are moving towards chassis-sharing. VW's new MQB platform is a good example, as are all of the crossover models we're seeing based on sedan platforms.

For that reason, I think it's HIGHLY doubtful that we'll see a new low- or mid-priced MR platform anytime soon.

[serialk11r]

The thing is if you are using V6 or I4 engines you can pick a whole FF drive train up and drop it into an MR with zero modification. I guess you need a sporty drive train to start with though and no one has one anymore.

[DarkSunrise]

Yeah the drivetrain is fairly easy if you can find a sporty one in existence (K24 perhaps), but the chassis development and production would be prohibitively expensive unless you could share it across other models. Not really possible for an MR platform.

The only way this would be feasible IMO would be a JV with another company. Something along the lines of the Lotus chassis / Celica engined Elise. Even then, the cost in the US ended up being $43k in 2006 (about $50k today), and that's with Lotus already having developed the Elise chassis for other markets.

[serialk11r]

I mean, the crz was a new platform right? How many of those are they selling?

[DarkSunrise]

From what I understand, the CRZ chassis was basically a shortened version of the Insight chassis (which was derived from the Fit chassis). Bit of a different situation than developing an MR chassis from scratch.

[chappys4life]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

There's a mid-market hole because most people shopping for a car in that range are going to be buying a primary car. For 40k, most people want to be able to haul the mail AND haul their kids. Or they want to haul their kids and impress their neighbors. It's the quintessential daily driver market. Which makes it the compromise market. Entry level luxury or blue collar performance with pseudoluxury fancy baubles.

I think that is the hardest thing when you are looking for a sports car and it be your only transporation. I feel the size of the fr-s/370z/corevtte/z4 limits how you can use the car for practical purposes. Unless you have a 2nd car or gf/wife/etc with a more practical vehicle I think it is something to consider which makes the market smaller as well. For me no kids but hauling things comes up and being the only car that small can create issues.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by chappys4life

I think that is the hardest thing when you are looking for a sports car and it be your only transporation. I feel the size of the fr-s/370z/corevtte/z4 limits how you can use the car for practical purposes. Unless you have a 2nd car or gf/wife/etc with a more practical vehicle I think it is something to consider which makes the market smaller as well. For me no kids but hauling things comes up and being the only car that small can create issues.

Yeah that's the reason why the hot hatch segment is becoming so popular. They combine some of the practicality of a station wagon with some of the performance/feel of a sports car.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by spdfreak

Yes. I'm genuinely excited to see what Ford does with the mustang. They won't go quite as extreme as Subaru/Toyota but I bet they'll still drop some weight. That in combination with IRS could make a pretty serious track toy.

What I've been reading on the major auto blogs hasn't been promising in this regard. Spy photos of the next gen Stang (admittedly heavily padded and camo'ed) show it to be about the same dimensions overall as the current-gen, so it's going to stay big and blocky. They might knock off 150 lbs using more high-strength steel, but that's not enough to make it a true sports car. And isn't going to an IRS going to add some weight?

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I wanna know how a 3250 lb Z is considered a Muscle Car? The typical muscle car weight is 500 lbs more than the Z. And the Z is 100-150 lbs more than a 991 911. I think if the Z can drop to 3000 to 3100lbs flat it would be fine considering a Cayman and the S model is in that weight category.

Cayman with MT is 2888 lb curb weight - nearly 400 lbs less than the 3272 lb base 370Z. That is a major difference. Even to get within 100 lbs of the Cayman is going to be difficult and costly.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Yeah that's the reason why the hot hatch segment is becoming so popular. They combine some of the practicality of a station wagon with some of the performance/feel of a sports car.

Adding to their growing appeal is the fact that they are getting closer to sports cars in terms of their handling characteristics - check out the reviews of the new Fiesta ST and the upcoming Mk 7 GTI with eLSD.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

(I am ignoring the 370Z here as it's more of a Japanese muscle car, does poorly in comparative reviews, and is teetering on its last legs before a re-do)

Huh? I hate Nissan and even I can admit the 370Z is a great car. You're asking what car exists and then specifically ignoring the only one that does.