Ford Fiesta ST Beats Toyota GT86 on the Track in EVO Test

[Steve]

Originally Posted by regal

I think he is saying he would rather have the ford power-plant than the FA20. But then you would get a ford gear box and LSD, sort of a wash.

No hes saying if the 86 looked like the fiesta, but drove like the 86, he'd still buy the "fiesta looking 86" because it drives that good.

[DarkSunrise]

Hahaha... sorry didn't realize my comment would be that confusing. I like the practicality of 4-door hatchbacks, that's all I meant. Unfortunately I haven't found one that drives like the Twins, but if I did, I'd be next in line to buy one.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by thill

So you would buy a Fiesta ST for $22K over a Focus ST? That is my point. With the heavy discounts on the Focus ST, it will force discounts on the Fiesta.

Base price on a Fiesta ST is $22,195 in the States. I am finding Focus ST's for that price or even less.

It might take a few months, but like just about all Ford cars, there will be huge discounts on these cars. Probably by the end of the year.

Even at the same price I could choose the Fiesta over the Focus if it drove better. But the pricing situation up in Canada is a lot different with the discounts offered on the FoST being less dramatic (and the MSRP higher at $29k and change).

I'm reading a few ST forums and it's clear that a lot of those who have driven both prefer the Fiesta - more agile (500 lbs lighter) and engaging. So for some that reduced price differential won't drive them to a FoST. I'd love to see the FiST at $21k or even $22k instead of $25k Canadian, but given past pricing movements here it's not likely. At $25k it would have to be amazing to move me away from spending a few thousand more for a BRZ though.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Pshaw. The problem isn't fwd or physics.

Lol, I guess those idiots in Formula 1 had it wrong all these years. I'm looking forward to next year's Red Bull F1 car. I hear it'll be a FWD diesel tractor.

I think it's rather sad people can get worked up about a youtube video that confirms more power, torque and stickier tires can get you around a track faster. People should be able to figure this out just comparing the spec sheets.

Next up, Lotus Elise on M+S tires, looses to John Cooper Works Mini S on Hoosiers.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Lol, I guess those idiots in Formula 1 had it wrong all these years. I'm looking forward to next year's Red Bull F1 car. I hear it'll be a FWD diesel tractor.

I think it's rather sad people can get worked up about a youtube video that confirms more power, torque and stickier tires can get you around a track faster. People should be able to figure this out just comparing the spec sheets.

Next up, Lotus Elise on M+S tires, looses to John Cooper Works Mini S on Hoosiers.

The FR-S is still faster than the Fiesta ST, EVO is just biased against the GT86... look at top gear, they will give you an unbiased review...

Spoiler:

The GT86 is more than a second faster on the Top Gear test track even with a damp track.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

The FR-S is still faster than the Fiesta ST, EVO is just biased against the GT86... look at top gear, they will give you an unbiased review...

Spoiler:

The GT86 is more than a second faster on the Top Gear test track even with a damp track.

Lol, preaching to the choir here. No need to watch the videos, the GT86 is the superior chassis based on physics and engineering. That's all that matters to me. Power, tires, etc. I can fix myself so that never really figures into an equation for me. The BRZ would be even faster than the GT86 due to the more balanced spring rates.

One of the engineers at Subaru said they focused on what could only be accomplished by the factory during the design and build phase, the rest was not as much of a priority. As it should be.

That pudgy Evo guy is a shitty driver anyway, I've seen his work before. He always loses to Tiff Needle and Tiff isn't that great either. Bad drivers drive better w/ more understeer.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

The FR-S is still faster than the Fiesta ST, EVO is just biased against the GT86... look at top gear, they will give you an unbiased review...

Spoiler:

The GT86 is more than a second faster on the Top Gear test track even with a damp track.

are you implying that either top gear isnt biased or that a car isnt capable of being faster on one track while slower on another with different drivers and different driving conditions? if you honestly believe either of those, how do you explain the whole top gear tesla issues or the fact that the same driver/car dont win every race in a season even in the highest levels of racing where the consistency is an order of magnitude greater than you see in car reviews from independent companies?

[EAGLE5]

Tiff may not be the fastest man on earth,but he is fantastically talented. The twins are wonderful cars, but they are far from the automotive ideal. they are neither mindengine nor awd. then again, f1 cars are far from the ideal due to myriad rules. then again, there is no ideal. once groundeffects come into play, all sorts of weirdness can take place. even without, there are scca claszses where fwd has often dominated. racing is more about fitting in the rules than anything. i just know that a civic can be moddedto go fast for much less than a twin. even then, even with an unlimited budget, these are just street cars playing at going fast. they wont approach what a purpose built car can do,fwd, rwd ,awd or whatever.

[Anaxilus]

Maybe compared to a normal automotive journalist, certainly not compared any race car drivers worth their salt. He has the most erratic steering wheel control (lack of) I've ever seen in a 'professional' racer (even behind a Logitech wheel) among other things. That combined w/ his poor throttle modulation of some modern day supercars just makes him and the cars look bad. Perhaps he's just getting long in the tooth and these current hypercars are too much. If Alonso was ever that bad (which he wasn't even as a rookie), he never would have got a seat w/ Renault. He makes Tsuchiya look like Ayrton Senna IMHO. I don't mean to pick on him, but some of his drives have just been total wasted opportunities w/ some cars.

Anyway, I think you are taking the comparison a bit too far and out of proportion. Nobody said anything about MR, AWD or downforce/aero. Those rules have nothing to do w/ the general layout of a Formula car, but more to do w/ slowing them down because they are too inherently fast. Racing is about winning which means using physics to your advantage. When all things are considered equal, there is no circumstance where FWD combined w/ a higher CoG is a better solution than RWD and lower CoG. That's what we are talking about here, people thinking some video is evidence of a taller FWD car being a superior racing design to a lower RWD car. That's just incorrect. Physics > Journalism. Hell, that Fiesta would never even match up to a similarly spec'd Integra Type R let alone a GT86/BRZ w/ the same power/tires. We don't need journalists or purpose built cars to understand this. Automotive design is simply not an act of randomness.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by PRORICAN

Hey I know you^^^ welcome to the forums!

Ps just realized you've been here for a while either way is cool to see more H-I peeps in here!

Lol yeah I been here for while

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by OuHiroshi

I like how contradictory a lot of the comments are (not just in this thread):

• Prius tires makes the car fun to go around corners.
• You have to put on grippy tires to be fair.

I don't consider those contradictory. It's two different goals. One is about sliding all around the curves, one is about track time.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

...Plus the Fiesta looks like a babyshoe...I don't care how fast it is

Yep, I have to agree with you. Guess I need to amend a previous statement...

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Personal opinion here, but it wouldn't matter to me if the Megane did 0-60 in 0.1 seconds, and got around the track faster than the Stig in a pod-racer, that is just not an attractive car. I feel the same way about the Abarth.

to include the Fiesta ST

[rice_classic]

Good job Ford, that's one hell of a sport hatch you built.

From this video and Top Gear, it sure looks like a blast to drive.

[s0sl0w]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

What specifically was better - road feel? Stability over in-corner bumps? Give us a bit of a writeup!

I'll give it a shot.

From the moment you step into the Fiesta you notice the great seats, they're brilliant (option Recaros) in both Fiesta and Focus. Every bit as good as the seats in the twins. The Fiesta featured a "clean but cluttered" interior, very like-able with excellent sight lines even if a bit busy. While easy to find a good seating position you can't escape the feeling of sitting on the car instead of in it relative to the twins. Once you get going the shifter is light and accurate but the throws are a bit longer than a BRZ, the clutch also lacks a certain amount of feel. Throttle response was excellent despite the turbo. Acceleration however wasn't exactly eyebrow raising, it' didn't feel a damn bit quicker than the BRZ, perhaps the car had already used up it's overboost? Once underway the steering was a tad light, when driven smoothly the car transitioned readily but the feeling of contained push was unavoidable, every input into the wheel was met with feedback thru the steering wheel, and not the good kind either. When driven stupidly the car plowed evilly. Despite that the car was very easy to gather back up despite my own inability to maximise it's potential. it felt light on it's feet but not as light as a BRZ.

The Focus had a very cluttered, busy interior that I really hated. But the acceleration was brilliant, much stronger feeling that a BRZ, and once again, no lag worth mentioning. However every input into the throttle was immediately greeted with being able to feel the car and steering electronics constantly fighting, the wheel would surge between light and heavy as the E-diff would do it's best to reign in the power. it never took away control but it never felt very organic either, you just pointed the wheel and said never-mind to what it felt like. Absolutely no subtlety of feel. The same can be said for the handling, when really hammed up it plowed like a pig, do it right and the car turned in savagely but it all felt very manufactured. It was nothing short of impressive but it also felt nothing short of assisted. Great handling FWD's? Yes. Deserve the praise being heaped on them? Yes. Actual competition to a pure bred sports car? No. The car pretty much always went where pointed and the handful of times I boned it up I was still able to recover it well and keep out of trouble but it never felt natural or good while doing it.

If I couldn't make a BRZ work for size reason's I'd be at a Ford dealer test driving the Focus and Fiesta more to settle out which one I like best. But I would miss the clean, simpel dynamics and feel of my BRZ, A LOT. They are absolutely apples to oranges.

The BRZ feels very organic, it find speed by producing a harmony between the road, the driver, and the chassis. It gently tells you what your doing wrong and where you're starting to go to fast, and it gives time to fix it. Both ST's lack this feel, they find the speed by adding power and desperately trying to reign in the chassis. While that obviously can produce very good times (lets keep in my that both ST's are on high performance grippy tires) it doesn't teach you or communicate. The turn in just happens, it's very easy to work with but the threshold between brilliant turn in, squirt and go, and flailing understeer is narrow. There little oppurtunity to figure out the sweet spots, you just chuck it in and then find out what happens, do it long enough and I'm sure you get a feel for it.

It's the difference between purpose built and purpose adapted. Both are very good but when it comes to the subtleties the purpose built tool just feels better, more natural, more fun, and more inviting. If you have two kids in car seats, a wife, and a dog that need to fit in your car, or have to haul loads of crap I wouldn't hesitate to purchase either ST (or a GTI) but if you can make a relatively impractical RWD coupe work, well then, enjoy it, because it's just better. Not faster, but better.