Twins vs future competition

[regal]

In the latest Dezoris video he has an interesting analogy. We really haven't had a light inexpensive rwd coupe sports car since '98 (240sx.) So he is saying what if there were no hamburgers for 15 years then McDonalds opens back, we would take a bit and think it is the greatest hamburger ever. But his analogy goes on to say that when more competition comes the McDonalds doesn't seem so great.

I think what he is saying is he expects Honda, Nissan, maybe Chevy to offer a small rwd coupe to compete with the Toyobaru.

I just don't see any major competitor releasing a car like the twins. Nissan has said that the 370Z will be made smaller, but it won't be that much lighter. The have no plans for an S16. GM is planning some rwd car based on the Caddy CTS platform, again that's going to be a bigger car.

The only thing we will see is the Pony cars (Mustang, Camaro, Barracuda) may get a little diet but they aren't going to be Toyobaru/Miata sized. The hatch market isn't going to turn to RWD.

The new Miata will probably be an all round better performer than the Twins, much lighter, Skyactive engine. It will may steal a significant amount of sales from the Twins, but it won't be a coupe.

The reason I bought an FRS is a I think its a swan song, the last of the small light rwd affordable sports coupes, I don't think anything better is going to come along.

[whaap]

Originally Posted by regal

The reason I bought an FRS is a I think its a swan song, the last of the small light rwd affordable sports coupes, I don't think anything better is going to come along.

I don't see the FR-S as a swan song. There have been many "sporty' coupes made over the years but I think the FR-S/BRZ is the first real small, light, rwd, and affordable sports coupe to come down the road. I'm sure the popularity they have gained since their introduction will bring other competitors but all that can do is give us a bigger field to play in which is good.

[regal]

Originally Posted by whaap

I don't see the FR-S as a swan song. There have been many "sporty' coupes made over the years but I think the FR-S/BRZ is the first real small, light, rwd, and affordable sports coupe to come down the road. I'm sure the popularity they have gained since their introduction will bring other competitors but all that can do is give us a bigger field to play in which is good.

I just don't see it. Even BMW made a recent attempt with the 1-series (although not really affordable) and it was a fail.

The new Miata will probably outsell them in 2015. I know the twins had a good first year, but a really profitable platform needs to sell like that every year.

Now I hope the twins break the mold and turn the industry upside down selling like hot cakes but the market just isn't there.

A lot of people think Nissan and Honda will throw their hats into this territory but there are no signs, a new platform takes 3 -5 years and without even concepts being shown the other OEMs just aren't interested.

There will be more cars like the upcoming Alpha 4c, but those are $60k cars. Even lotus who once sold the Elise here for under $40k is going up market.


I think the main thing will be Miata striking back with a great car but open top roadsters are a different market than a sports coupe buyer. The real slap in the face will be the open top twin vs the new Miata, anyone think that will go well ?

[Rayme]

I think Nissan will play. They have weird cars like the Juke and Cube that doesn't really appeal to anyone in particular but still put them for sale on their lots.

[regal]

Originally Posted by ottopilot

I think Nissan will play. They have weird cars like the Juke and Cube that doesn't really appeal to anyone in particular but still put them for sale on their lots.

All they would have to do is re-release the JDM S15. The problem is emissions. Reading the Tada interviews on the development of the Twins Toyota was really restrained by the 160gCO2/km. That's a very tough thing to meet, I don't know the specifics but I think it is more for ODBII and other regulations in other countries. Its the main reason the twins are underpowered

Then there is Café pushing auto makers to increase overall average mpg across their model lines. Makes it tough to release a RWD as RWD has such a large powertrain loss vs FWD. A new car has to fall into their existing product line raising avg mpg or their is little money available to develop the new platform. While its easy to boost HP and improve suspension of a econo-car and sell in limited volumes.

The main reason Tada got the money allocated to the Toyobaru was because Toyota was/is a huge successful corp that wanted to improve their marketing image from boring. The others don't have this luxry.

I think the twins are the last of their kind, so I'm holding on to mine

[raul]

Originally Posted by regal

In the latest Dezoris video he has an interesting analogy. We really haven't had a light inexpensive rwd coupe sports car since '98 (240sx.) So he is saying what if there were no hamburgers for 15 years then McDonalds opens back, we would take a bit and think it is the greatest hamburger ever. But his analogy goes on to say that when more competition comes the McDonalds doesn't seem so great.

If I had to choose from McDonalds, Wendy's, BK, Checkers, or any other fast food that makes burgers, I'd still choose McDonalds. With that logic the Solstice/Sky would have been a huge success because they were available with a hardtop. That's not really the case, is it?

[raul]

Originally Posted by regal

A lot of people think Nissan and Honda will throw their hats into this territory but there are no signs, a new platform takes 3 -5 years and without even concepts being shown the other OEMs just aren't interested.

Honda isn't interested. They're making the NSX a hybrid because it gives them a halo car without tanking their MPG goals. It's all business, no passion. Having a supercar as a halo car is great, but frankly the wrong approach. Toyota did it right. Think about it for a second. How many GT-Rs, Vipers, or other expensive halo cars do you see on the road? Now how often will you see FR-S/BRZs? The difference will be huge. Seeing the car more often is a constant reminder that a company wants to share the passion with the general public, rather than with the 1%. Also, if any car company was going to compete, Nissan is probably the one with the balls to do it, and maybe Ford and Chevy. Nissan made a Juke with a GT-R drivetrain for goodness' sake.

[TylerLieberman]

Nissan will definitely come out with something. Just a matter of what and when.

It would be awesome to see mazda and Honda get back in it and bring some cars into play as well. Problem is there are so many sites out there who wet their panties as soon as they hear a single word about a car release. True info and fact always gets lost because of it.

Only time will tell

[Levi]

VW Bluesport
Porsche 550
Porsche 981
Audi R4
Alfa 4C
Alfa Spider
Nissan (instead of 370 Z)
Renault Alpine
BMW Z2 (FWD)
MX-5/RX-7 (new, hopefully coupé)
Honda "S2000" (hopefully)


I see only Mazda RX-7 and Honda lacking.

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by regal

The reason I bought an FRS is a I think its a swan song, the last of the small light rwd affordable sports coupes, I don't think anything better is going to come along.

Its funny that you use the phrase "swan song" as I just used it on my ebay motor whatever page in that GT-R competition.

I don't think that the twins are the last of their kind....only time will tell, but companies now see that there is a niche for these types of cars.

As far as being a "swan song," I feel that it wasn't for the type of car so much as for scion. It hasn't been doing well lately and it needed a hell marry which in turn was it's "last beautiful song" before it died, or "swan song" :happy0180:

[n2oinferno]

All we can do is wait and see. But generally if Company A is doing something well, and Company B, C, and D don't have that product, they're going to bring one to market to outdo Company A. And then there's Honda, who just doesn't seem to care anymore so we'll get a 3.0L Civic Si next year with a 6000k redline.

[Rampage]

Chevy is supposedly going to base a small RWD coupe on the ATS chassis not the CTS. Even so it will be awful hard for them to get down to the FT86 weight.

Manufacturers face a two fold challenge when attempting to make a light car these days. First, they have to comply with al the government imposed safety standards and emission control standards which all add weight. Secondly, they have to deal with the gizmo and gadget crazy young buyer that wants internet access, music hall sound, Ipod.Android,Windows touch and Nav plus handsfree, keyless entry and push button start etc etc etc. Oh and don't forget the turbo and supercharger! All these add weight and kill nimbleness.

Toyota and Subaru drew a line in the sand and stuck to their guns. They produced a minimalist sporty coupe and kept fairly close to their original vision. I give them props for that. But look how many people on these forums are complaining because the cars lack all those very things.

I honestly do not know if anyone else will try to make a car like the FT86 again but I hope some other manufacturers will step up.

[rice_classic]

Don't fear hybrid, embrace it. Hybrid =/= Prius.

The only aspect of the Twins that is a "swan song" is the petrol-only powerplant. The fun/light/rwd sport coupes of the future will see IMA's, Start/Stop, Electric motors, regenerative braking etc etc as part of the powerplant. It is the way of the future and I honestly embrace it.

There's also a multitude of fun and efficient things they can do with electric motors and/or electric motor assist. The sports car future isn't bleak, nor is this a swan song... it's only bleak until all that technology improves and comes WAY down in cost where they can implement it affordably into entry-level-fun-cars. Until then, the sports cars of the future (that will be hybrids) will be out of most our price ranges.

I don't see why my car should:
1: have the engine running at a stop light
2: burn gasoline to coast through the shopping mall parking lot
3: not capture kinetic energy through braking.

IMA (integrated motor assist) setups like that in the CR-Z are under 180lbs in their entirety. I see no reason why a car like the TWINS cannot exist in the future still making 200+hp but instead get 40mpg around town and/or 45+mpg freeway. Uh.. yes please.

[pmdc]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Don't fear hybrid, embrace it. Hybrid =/= Prius.

The only aspect of the Twins that is a "swan song" is the petrol-only powerplant. The fun/light/rwd sport coupes of the future will see IMA's, Start/Stop, Electric motors, regenerative braking etc etc as part of the powerplant. It is the way of the future and I honestly embrace it.

There's also a multitude of fun and efficient things they can do with electric motors and/or electric motor assist. The sports car future isn't bleak, nor is this a swan song... it's only bleak until all that technology improves and comes WAY down in cost where they can implement it affordably into entry-level-fun-cars. Until then, the sports cars of the future (that will be hybrids) will be out of most our price ranges.

I don't see why my car should:
1: have the engine running at a stop light
2: burn gasoline to coast through the shopping mall parking lot
3: not capture kinetic energy through braking.

IMA (integrated motor assist) setups like that in the CR-Z are under 180lbs in their entirety. I see no reason why a car like the TWINS cannot exist in the future still making 200+hp but instead get 40mpg around town and/or 45+mpg freeway. Uh.. yes please.

I'm hoping stuff like this is reasonably priced by the time I'm looking to sell my FRS.