Questions on Suspension Geometry

[EAGLE5]

He casts a handful of wrenches onto the ground then reads the gods' will from the orientation.
"The 11mm socket facing north means good traction with polybushings but the downward facing snapon logo suggests a higher viscosity oil."

[Racecomp Engineering]

In all seriousness it's not magic or a black art...it's math/physics and experience.

- andy

[GTM_Challenge]

Step 1. Get Car
Step 2. Get Car to Track
Step 3. Get Car to Track and Learn to Drive
Step 4. Get Car to Track and Learn to Drive Fast
Step 5. Get Car to Track and Learn to Drive Faster
Step 6. Get Car to Track and Learn to Drive Faster and Faster
Step 7. Start worrying about things talked about in this thread but not applying them.

This is a great discussion, but no amount of money, math, or internet talk will make up for driver skill. I love you guys, but I've never met a group of car enthusiasts that talk about technical stuff that is unwarranted at the driver skill level than with this group. It's good to discuss things, but don't act like your enjoyment of the car hinges on what spring rates you need to run due to run or what tire size is optimal. Get out there and drive your car. The more you drive it, the more you see how it reacts to your driving. At that point, you should start looking at how to fix the issues that you don't like. It might be very old school, but it's tried and true, and you get to have fun in the process.

[robispec]

When I was bicycle racing there were three "secrets" to successful racing.
they were
ride your bike
Ride your bike
RIDE YOUR BIKE
This translates directly in cars.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

Step 1. Get Car
Step 2. Get Car to Track
Step 3. Get Car to Track and Learn to Drive
Step 4. Get Car to Track and Learn to Drive Fast
Step 5. Get Car to Track and Learn to Drive Faster
Step 6. Get Car to Track and Learn to Drive Faster and Faster
Step 7. Start worrying about things talked about in this thread but not applying them.

Or autocross if a track event is too challenging.

I can't count the number of people I've come across, with new cars, never pushed to its limits... yet the owner is hell-bent on getting all the right mods on the car so it can be faster.

Most BRZ/FRS owners don't even realize that by doing certain types of mods, you could make your car more difficult to drive at the limit versus stock.

If you really want to spend money on upgrading the car, start with a better set of 215/45-17 tires, and see how much faster you can go... don't worry about sway bars or suspension stiffness or wheel rates, because (and I'm not saying this to put the OP or anyone else down), if you have to ask about what these things mean and what they can do for your car handling-wise, I'm sorry, you don't have enough track/driving experience to know what the changes will do for you as a driver.

-alex

[robispec]

When you go to the track...look for the old dirty guys with the fast cars...ask leading questions and then listen lol...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

It's really interesting...I see different approaches applied at different levels/areas of motorsports. The heavy focus on suspension frequencies explained by DG in the link above has gotten a lot more common at the serious track day and auto-x level and seems to be the direction the OP's mind is heading. Others continue on past that and get into more on geometry, roll centers (or if they're baller status they talk about Force Application Points), and the actual weight transfer dynamics. It can get very physics/math heavy if you get really into it (suspension frequencies are nothing in comparison). Others still do the "make it really stiff and you don't have to worry about geometry" thing and with a good driver you can still be fast on smooth pavement.

- Andy

The frequency talk trickling down to the grassroots is awesome. It shows that some of the more serious and objectively minded grassroots/amateur guys are putting work in to understand and translate what the top professionals are doing and 'plain English-ing' it to get the info to people that have moved beyond stance and low.

Thanks for being part of those guys that are fighting the good fight.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Or autocross if a track event is too challenging.

I can't count the number of people I've come across, with new cars, never pushed to its limits... yet the owner is hell-bent on getting all the right mods on the car so it can be faster.

Most BRZ/FRS owners don't even realize that by doing certain types of mods, you could make your car more difficult to drive at the limit versus stock.

If you really want to spend money on upgrading the car, start with a better set of 215/45-17 tires, and see how much faster you can go... don't worry about sway bars or suspension stiffness or wheel rates, because (and I'm not saying this to put the OP or anyone else down), if you have to ask about what these things mean and what they can do for your car handling-wise, I'm sorry, you don't have enough track/driving experience to know what the changes will do for you as a driver.

-alex

In defense of some of us... When I first got the car I wasn't going to touch the suspension, then I started get more and more used to MY limits within the car. That's when I realized that I wanted to change somethings that would make me more comfortable when driving at my limits. I understand fully that I've hardly ever touched the cars limits. Things like stiffer bushings in the diff and rear sub frame are transmitting more information allowing me to better control rear wheel spin. Stiffer springs particularly in the front allow me to stay off the bump stops, something I found happening with the OEM tires.

Could I have gotten just as fast with more driver education? Absolutely, but for me that's not the point of my modding. Which I understand is completely at odds with a track guys mentality. For me it's about being comfortable with the car, individualizing my car, and making my car the best it can be. Best being defined by me, as there could be many different definitions. I'm not worried about points or classing so a few mods are alot cheaper and easier. Oh, and to me, cooler. Personally, given the choice, I'd rather be crew chief on a race team. I find the engineering of both the cars abilities and ergonomics is much more fascinating. And to that end, I research my mods as much as my time demands and understanding allows and preform them methodically. :happy0180:

I can't speak for the OP, but for me, that is why I talk about these things or read these threads. It's just another side of modding.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Calum

In defense of some of us...

I'm not calling out people who mod their car.. I'm calling out those that are modding for the sake of "going faster" without realizing what the mods actually are doing, or the context in which they are modding the car.

I realize it's a blanket statement on my part, but I see this a lot on people who put on aftermarket coilover kits, then rave about "ride quality better than stock"....

Or those that can't dial in suspension settings properly, even with adjustable knobs.

I'm no expert by any stretch of imagination, but I also tread cautiously, especially with major changes.

-alex

[EAGLE5]

If I mod, it will be to have fun. Go to oreilly. Get a lawnmower battery. Replace the stock one. Save 15 pounds off the front for 60 bucks. Fun! Improved lap time? Hell, from my best to worst lap is haolf an hour.