EcuTek vs BRZ-Edit

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by Dynotronics1

Not really, we use both, Ecutek is well aware of it and understands that it is a buyers market.

We have customers who want the lower cost version of the files, with out the extras like the Race Rom patch, but there are far more that like the extras like the map switching.

One thing you need to think about; Race Rom is not just a simple add on with extra maps and such, there are some very significant code patches that allow the software to do things that BRZedit can't, such as log extra parameters.

Also, you mention editing on your own after the tuner has done your car with BRZedit; unless your tuner gives you the ROM and allows it to be editable from the personal edition, you will not be able to simply edit what he/she have installed.

Now, the question is how many of these do we sell vs the EcuTek? Well since we sell our EcuTek file(stock,91oct,93 oct and e85) for 399.99 with free lifetime upgrades, and we sell the BRZedit files for 300.00, with the same free updates(you have too buy a cable), not too many. Most folks want to added coolness of the RR map switching.

All good points, but here is where i am with it all.

I already have BRZedit personal, because i can tune my own cars and I wanted to get very familiar with the platform. I already had an OP2 cable from my evo days.

Now, if i want to buy the innovate twinscrew, i would like to be able to buy a base map from a tuner that i can edit and fine tune on my own. I simply don't need a tuner to do that for me, i would rather do it myself on the dyno. But I am happy to pay 300 for a start up calibration that will let me drive safely (and of course tenderly) to the dyno to do my own custom tune.

If you don't care about tuning your own car and want to do a remote flash you can either buy ecutek (cable, license, and tune) or BRZedit (slave version, op2 cable, tune).

I don't know what ecutek cables cost or licenses. I know OP2 can be had new for $169.00. BRZedit slave is $200. the Tune will cost about the same as ecutek... so, if you don't care about racerom (brzedit is adding some of these features) it is probably a coulpe hundred less to go with brzedit.

OR if you just want a dyno tune you can just go get protuned on BRZedit and just pay for the tune, no cable or license or software. With Ecutek, you still have to buy the license.

Also, as mentioned before, BRZedit allows a lower entry point price to tuners. If you have a local subbie tunner you known an love, they only need to tune 3 cars to get their investment cost covered, while with ecutek it is more like 10 cars.. so in an area with a low number of twins.....

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

All good points, but here is where i am with it all.

I already have BRZedit personal, because i can tune my own cars and I wanted to get very familiar with the platform. I already had an OP2 cable from my evo days.

Now, if i want to buy the innovate twinscrew, i would like to be able to buy a base map from a tuner that i can edit and fine tune on my own. I simply don't need a tuner to do that for me, i would rather do it myself on the dyno. But I am happy to pay 300 for a start up calibration that will let me drive safely (and of course tenderly) to the dyno to do my own custom tune.

If you don't care about tuning your own car and want to do a remote flash you can either buy ecutek (cable, license, and tune) or BRZedit (slave version, op2 cable, tune).

I don't know what ecutek cables cost or licenses. I know OP2 can be had new for $169.00. BRZedit slave is $200. the Tune will cost about the same as ecutek... so, if you don't care about racerom (brzedit is adding some of these features) it is probably a coulpe hundred less to go with brzedit.

OR if you just want a dyno tune you can just go get protuned on BRZedit and just pay for the tune, no cable or license or software.

Also, as mentioned before, BRZedit allows a lower entry point price to tuners. If you have a local subbie tunner you known an love, they only need to tune 3 cars to get their investment cost covered, while with ecutek it is more like 10 cars.. so in an area with a low number or twins.....

that's pretty much where i stand. i just don't want locked out of my own damn map, basically. that's a liability i'm not willing to accept down the road. i need to be able to change it as time goes on without paying someone, or with the ability to pay anyone to do it.

if ecutek would offer me a way to buy a map that i can actually own and modify then i'd pay a premium for the value they've added in all the cool racerom stuff.

for people who don't know or care how the inside of their car's ecu works, the math is probably very different.

[Dynotronics1]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

All good points, but here is where i am with it all.

I already have BRZedit personal, because i can tune my own cars and I wanted to get very familiar with the platform. I already had an OP2 cable from my evo days.

Now, if i want to buy the innovate twinscrew, i would like to be able to buy a base map from a tuner that i can edit and fine tune on my own. I simply don't need a tuner to do that for me, i would rather do it myself on the dyno. But I am happy to pay 300 for a start up calibration that will let me drive safely (and of course tenderly) to the dyno to do my own custom tune.

If you don't care about tuning your own car and want to do a remote flash you can either buy ecutek (cable, license, and tune) or BRZedit (slave version, op2 cable, tune).

I don't know what ecutek cables cost or licenses. I know OP2 can be had new for $169.00. BRZedit slave is $200. the Tune will cost about the same as ecutek... so, if you don't care about racerom (brzedit is adding some of these features) it is probably a coulpe hundred less to go with brzedit.

OR if you just want a dyno tune you can just go get protuned on BRZedit and just pay for the tune, no cable or license or software.

Also, as mentioned before, BRZedit allows a lower entry point price to tuners. If you have a local subbie tunner you known an love, they only need to tune 3 cars to get their investment cost covered, while with ecutek it is more like 10 cars.. so in an area with a low number or twins.....

your correct. BRZedit is wonderful if you want to explore the yourself. EcuTek is more geared for the professional tuner, and comes with a HUGE amount of sw and hardware R&D.

As an example, if you f%^k up a CAN address in one of your files, and brick your ecu, Epifan is not going to tell you to ship the ecu to him, and he will restore it free of charge. Now notice I did not say, you could not recover it yourself with a bit of knowledge, as it can be done BDM, but most folks can't do that sort of thing

The other thing is the file sharing issue; one of the nice things about EcuTek is that the only people that can read my work are the sub dealers I choose to allow to see it. This is something that BRZedit addresses with the no read set up. Sorry, I know this pisses lots of the OS folks off, but its work product, plan and simple.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by Dynotronics1

The other thing is the file sharing issue; one of the nice things about EcuTek is that the only people that can read my work are the sub dealers I choose to allow to see it. This is something that BRZedit addresses with the no read set up. Sorry, I know this pisses lots of the OS folks off, but its work product, plan and simple.

I still can't understand how people can actually think that way. There will eventually be free basemaps available for every single typical setup. If someone feels like they don't need a custom tune they'll use these -- and your work on one car is no more valuable to another car than those free basemaps. If someone wants a custom tune they'll still come to you.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone could bring their car to you, already tuned by someone else, and just need some minor changes for a new intake? And you could still charge your $8000 or whatever it is professional tuners charge.

Hiding the work you've done is a huge disservice to your customers. I know I'll never have my car tuned by anyone that does, and I'm not alone.

[ft_sjo]

It's called competition.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Dynotronics1

The other thing is the file sharing issue; one of the nice things about EcuTek is that the only people that can read my work are the sub dealers I choose to allow to see it. This is something that BRZedit addresses with the no read set up. Sorry, I know this pisses lots of the OS folks off, but its work product, plan and simple.

exactly. when someone pays a business to produce a product, don't they usually get to keep it and do what they want with it? as stated above, it's of no value to any other customer as it's bespoke to the paying customer's vehicle. or atleast that's the theory the 'custom' tuning industry is built upon. if we could just load a decent base map and drive (like the factories do), then it'd be profitable to tune a single vehicle and amortize that cost over 1000 map downloads. this is of course not the case. people pay for custom tunes for a reason. they want perfect.

i just don't get the idea that sharing tunes is bad because they're worthless, but yet i can't modify the one i paid for because i might share it. seems like doubletalk, no? nevermind the fact that there are already protections in place to ensure that a file can be access controlled per ecu and/or software license. whether or not i can modify it is in no way related to whether or not i can share it. in any case, i paid for it, i should be able to share it with whoever i want. it's useless to them anyway, right?

the whole thing just seems designed to liberate as much of our money as possible from our pockets, and not much more. it's not about protecting ip. they're in no way related.

[swift996]

My only issue is $350 for a license is a little steep. I think a fair price would be $199. Also their cable should be included in the license price or an additional $49. $650 to use their software and have a cable to flash it, is ridiculous. I feel bad for the tuners because it puts more pressure on them to keep their costs down. They could probably eek out another $100-200 for their time if the price of EcuTek was lower.

[Toma]

Originally Posted by jamesm

exactly. when someone pays a business to produce a product, don't they usually get to keep it and do what they want with it? as stated above, it's of no value to any other customer as it's bespoke to the paying customer's vehicle. or atleast that's the theory the 'custom' tuning industry is built upon. if we could just load a decent base map and drive (like the factories do), then it'd be profitable to tune a single vehicle and amortize that cost over 1000 map downloads. this is of course not the case. people pay for custom tunes for a reason. they want perfect.

i just don't get the idea that sharing tunes is bad because they're worthless, but yet i can't modify the one i paid for because i might share it. seems like doubletalk, no? nevermind the fact that there are already protections in place to ensure that a file can be access controlled per ecu and/or software license. whether or not i can modify it is in no way related to whether or not i can share it. in any case, i paid for it, i should be able to share it with whoever i want. it's useless to them anyway, right?

the whole thing just seems designed to liberate as much of our money as possible from our pockets, and not much more. it's not about protecting ip. they're in no way related.

Welcome to the new world of "intellectual property". I was once allowed to buy a record or tape, then make a back-up, change formats, hell, even make a mix tape or CD. Now, that's illegal in many places.

But we as consumers LET it happen. We support this corruption.

You know what's REALLY weird? these ECU guys wanna "protect" the "tuners" "intellectual" property, yet if you look at the 1 megabyte or 1.5 of the Code in the ECU, the "tuner" only changed maybe 1% of it. So the code is still vast Majority Subaru. Seems hypocritical to me.

I agree, mail order tunes are money makers, but rarely offer "ideal". But on a stock(ish) vehicle, you won't see much difference either way.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Toma

Welcome to the new world of "intellectual property". I was once allowed to buy a record or tape, then make a back-up, change formats, hell, even make a mix tape or CD. Now, that's illegal in many places.

But we as consumers LET it happen. We support this corruption.

You know what's REALLY weird? these ECU guys wanna "protect" the "tuners" "intellectual" property, yet if you look at the 1 megabyte or 1.5 of the Code in the ECU, the "tuner" only changed maybe 1% of it. So the code is still vast Majority Subaru. Seems hypocritical to me.

I agree, mail order tunes are money makers, but rarely offer "ideal". But on a stock(ish) vehicle, you won't see much difference either way.

i think the big difference between this and regular software or artistic IP is that my led zeppelin album plays fine in someone else's cd player. if i copy it, it's useful to them, so rampant piracy would be the case if there were no laws to protect against this. they accomplish this through creative licensing. you don't own the content of the cd, so you can't replicate it legally. you can, however, give your original copy to a friend to borrow, if you choose.

this is entirely different. my tune no longer does it's job as intended when applied to another vehicle. and of course i didn't pay led zeppelin to record stairway to heaven, so they've amortized the cost of production over millions of records sold. when it comes to my tune, i paid for the work, my money produced that product. it's a contractor providing a service to a paying customer. they don't then get to keep rights to it and hold it for ransom every time i need to make a minor change.

imagine if you had a deck put on your house and the contractor coated it with some crap that wouldn't allow normal paint to stick so that any time you wanted to repaint it you had to go to him and pay him. his argument is that you don't own the deck, he does (suggesting you read the fine print), and he's letting you use it as he sees fit. further, he then insults you by suggesting your feeble brain couldn't possibly handle touching up a railing on your own. it's kinda like that, and every bit and shitty for the consumer.

but that's ok. it's a cycle, and they'll eventually (once open source catches up) either have to produce value above the cheaper, more reasonably termed alternative, or die in the market. if the evo/subaru market is any precedent, they'll probably skip out and move on to the next platform by then.

[Dynotronics1]

Originally Posted by qoncept

I still can't understand how people can actually think that way. There will eventually be free basemaps available for every single typical setup. If someone feels like they don't need a custom tune they'll use these -- and your work on one car is no more valuable to another car than those free basemaps. If someone wants a custom tune they'll still come to you.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone could bring their car to you, already tuned by someone else, and just need some minor changes for a new intake? And you could still charge your $8000 or whatever it is professional tuners charge.

Hiding the work you've done is a huge disservice to your customers. I know I'll never have my car tuned by anyone that does, and I'm not alone.

Ah, so all the work we put into developing a calibration should just be given to everyone? what if your the guy that paid us to tune your car, first on the list, so to speak, you think its then fair for your buddy, down the street to just copy it without paying any of what you did?

We would have to agree to disagree here. I do this for a living, and spend thousands of hours on a platform developing a calibration for it. Why then would I give it away for free?

And in re reading your post above, one other think occurred to me; you ask about touching up someone else's work; not gonna happen. I refuse to work on anything other than a stock file. There are simply not enough hours in the week to fix bad tunes that we see coming in the shop, or by email. Always best to start from scatch, with a calibration you KNOW works, and have spent the time to develop.

BTW, we are not "hiding" anything. your paying me for results, not for code. You want the code, we will develop it for you, you pay us, then its yours to do with what you like. But your name gos on it, not ours. We have done this for several manufactures over the years, and I have no problem with it on that basis

[Dynotronics1]

Originally Posted by Toma

Welcome to the new world of "intellectual property". I was once allowed to buy a record or tape, then make a back-up, change formats, hell, even make a mix tape or CD. Now, that's illegal in many places.

But we as consumers LET it happen. We support this corruption.

You know what's REALLY weird? these ECU guys wanna "protect" the "tuners" "intellectual" property, yet if you look at the 1 megabyte or 1.5 of the Code in the ECU, the "tuner" only changed maybe 1% of it. So the code is still vast Majority Subaru. Seems hypocritical to me.

I agree, mail order tunes are money makers, but rarely offer "ideal". But on a stock(ish) vehicle, you won't see much difference either way.

old saying in the auto industry; you ain't paying for what I do, your paying me for what I know

[NotSoJDM]

Originally Posted by Dynotronics1

Ah, so all the work we put into developing a calibration should just be given to everyone? what if your the guy that paid us to tune your car, first on the list, so to speak, you think its then fair for your buddy, down the street to just copy it without paying any of what you did?

We would have to agree to disagree here. I do this for a living, and spend thousands of hours on a platform developing a calibration for it. Why then would I give it away for free?

This will be a never ending battle between those who tune for a living and the DIYer. Personally I agree that if I am paying for a service I own the byproduct. Just as the byproduct of an employee of a company is owned by the company.

Those who are not a DIYer will not mind paying for a tune with a set it and forget it approach.

I think the disagreement comes to those who want to make hardware changes and thus make changes to the ECU maps as changes are made to the car. It could be the gap in knowledge where someone is comfortable making small incremental changes based on additional mods, but is not comfortable drafting an entirely new tune when they transition from NA to FI. Is it fair to limit that ability by locking the tune they paid for? Not in my opinion. Does it mean they could take advantage of your base map and exploit it on the Internet? Yes it does, and this is where the disagreement comes in to play. For honest people who value others work, this is a non-issue. Those looking to use the fruits of someone else's labor to make a profit for themselves, are those who you are trying to avoid and I understand that.

This reply isn't intended to argue one way or another. It's just an attempt to explain my views on both sides and acknowledging that your statement of agreeing to disagree is as far as it will get.

[Toma]

It's all a symptom of our sick corporatist market system. Its to the point of not ever owning what you buy anymore. You are just paying for stuff and that grants you rights to limited use.

[Dynotronics1]

Originally Posted by NotSoJDM

This will be a never ending battle between those who tune for a living and the DIYer. Personally I agree that if I am paying for a service I own the byproduct. Just as the byproduct of an employee of a company is owned by the company.

Those who are not a DIYer will not mind paying for a tune with a set it and forget it approach.

I think the disagreement comes to those who want to make hardware changes and thus make changes to the ECU maps as changes are made to the car. It could be the gap in knowledge where someone is comfortable making small incremental changes based on additional mods, but is not comfortable drafting an entirely new tune when they transition from NA to FI. Is it fair to limit that ability by locking the tune they paid for? Not in my opinion. Does it mean they could take advantage of your base map and exploit it on the Internet? Yes it does, and this is where the disagreement comes in to play. For honest people who value others work, this is a non-issue. Those looking to use the fruits of someone else's labor to make a profit for themselves, are those who you are trying to avoid and I understand that.

This reply isn't intended to argue one way or another. It's just an attempt to explain my views on both sides and acknowledging that your statement of agreeing to disagree is as far as it will get.

There is somewhat of a middle ground; some software we work with allows the tuner to assign a level of adjustability to the calibration. this allows the enduser to mess with stuff like MAF transfer, and some scalars, as well as limiters, but protects things like hard won cam timing table input, etc.